# Vinay Gupta + Regulation & Innovation panel @ #PillarUnconference Day 3 LIVE | Pillar (part 2 of 2)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [767], part 2 of 2. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2018-07-18 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Legal-layer thinking behind Mattereum.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - Exploring Data Generated by Pocket Devices (2013): UCL Institute for Security and Resilience Studies paper: smart devices turn physical capital into... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - rich data capitalism: Cheap information changes what a market can carry: price signals hold only a few bits (2013), blockchains cut... (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Smart contracts, law & arbitration (31%); Smart contracts, arbitration & dispute resolution — the legal layer (14%); Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (11%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: land registry (3 here; 6 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); case law (2 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2011); Ian Grigg (3 here; 21 sources in all, earliest dated 2015); identity standard (1 here; 3 sources in all, earliest dated 2006); legal layer (1 here; 3 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); Legalese (1 here; 5 sources in all, earliest dated 2015); Wired (2 here; 22 sources in all, earliest dated 2002, 1 undated); political change (2 here; 25 sources in all, earliest dated 2006); certificates (2 here; 26 sources in all, earliest dated 2006); real assets (1 here; 7 sources in all, earliest dated 2012)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): land registry; legal layer
- Importance: core-text score 0.27 (1.00 is the top), number 290 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [678] [WNWB S01E08: Mattereum with Vinay Gupta (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/678.md): close in content (cosine 0.95)
  - [565] [Coin Telegraph AMA with Mattereum's Vinay Gupta 14th... (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/565.md): close in content (cosine 0.95)
- On the same works, just before: [614] Dean Masley & Ahsan Fazal - Internet of Agreements - Space (2018); [615] Anushka Sharma - Internet of Agreements - Space (2018); [617] Benoit Chamot - Internet of Agreements - Space (2018)
- On the same works, just after: [607] Pavlo Tanasyuk - Internet of Agreements - Space (2018); [608] Kryha - Internet of Agreements - Space (2018); [609] James Bruegger - Internet of Agreements - Space (2018)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Vinay Gupta + Regulation & Innovation panel @ #PillarUnconference Day 3 LIVE | Pillar, video, 2018-07-18, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [767], https://guptaoption.com/texts/767.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 2 of 2
[40:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=2430s) system and we took all that text and we've loaded it into github okay right and then you had a much broader based approach to people coming along and suggesting modification and then you could still have lawmakers on before votes well find me some wand have you I mean what do you think of special economic zones rent the special economic zones look like they've got the beginnings of the potential for these kind of new legal structures the see setter for trying it is different from especially from s easy there's no but we have acknowledged and I think there is you don't have critical mass of people who will basically force the government to implement it so let's not forget that government how a bureaucracy machine I'll tell you in a second so all the government's and burgers a machine it's in their nature to multiply in size yes it just decide it works in this way from ancient Rome but now we have this technology and I think via educating masses we can force the system that when I proposed this kind of digitalising that the law into smart contracts and basically making a giant github for yours diction to make those changes so first of all them the beer the amount of bureaucrats will be reduced so all those tasks where somebody basically just signs or sends the documents with a signature will be massively reduced so I think now actually I see a bit of light one way through here is called make it easy for me right because everybody in the world wants to make you know make it easy for me right so if I can if you can make legislators and regulators jobs easy for them but is it maintainable what are you to suggest that I mean at the end of the day there's a reason why you're specialists in different fields and I think there are some some examples where regulation could help I mean I like that I can return my package three days after ordering something online so consumer protection laws definitely helped some people you can always overdo it and that's also being done but their same that right so if we had no Sumer protection laws then companies would have reputations within writing a petition yet would do less business with people who screwed more people but then all we can turn into American markets of goods and services which is not really in what American markets are unregulated it is regulated but if you see how

[43:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=2580s) customers are protected in Europe compared to American customers say some products that are really harmful there's a net benefit here know that the customer connection paracetamol here I can get a bucket of it in New York City for five bucks I can't get a tablet here yeah but let's if you think about really dangerous drugs and how they can be over prescribed in certain jurisdictions there are some positive things about customer protection but then the balance is is the hardest part how much you will put into code and how much you leave for people do sites so I think this is a two level problem right so I mean the question is basically how do we assess the cost of regulation right and it's very very clear that our societies are totally unable to cope with the future because they've over regulated themselves to the point where they can't flex we just have no ability to respond to change I mean we've now had ten years of blockchain and I don't think we've got a single jurisdiction that's really gotten its hand around how to a couple we've had a few things you know nobody's done the obvious thing which is to say the Bitcoin is going to be handled as a foreign currency and it's just you know it's the you know basically the central bank of the internet and you could just go straight from there and do the obvious thing nobody's done that and they're probably not gonna for another five or ten years because the problem is that the law makers are generally speaking old so one thing that you could do is you could just kick people out of government let's say 35 right because in America for example you can't be president until you're is it 35 40 for me right so if you could say a minimum age on the president under we should be able to a maximum age and we could just consider that increases quality it might not increase the quality but at least it would increase the flexibility get gamed she got a bunch of you know young people coming in through the systems change right maybe there's different testing system for regulators or people in power to test the abilities and the test should be designed in this way that you need to stay flexible and write to the audience I'm looking for a ray of hope does anybody have one

[45:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=2710s) moving to the upswing though quick quick safety personal safety safety on the job safety on highways highway safety all thought that works some as opposed to no regulation does anybody show me a crack through which we can get some progress here on crypto currencies because that by the way we're sitting in a place called Lithuania where there's quite a lot being done no absolutely and where Jonas showed us the other day that they're just you know kicking ass with blockchain for registration which leads right to your concept of being able to sell a house in the next five years it's gonna be the next one year where that guy here hmm he's he's close he's eight these four fifths of the way there it's amazing but what do you think about what your father did I'm trying to base what you're trying to base it on cases and use cases and so on I mean it's it's the softest approach that you can take to regulation if you try to not regulate protocol because I think it's impossible to regulate protocol you still need some references read so what what are you trying to regulate all they're doing is they're alter and a little bit ends with some they're kind of giving you a license to have an exchange really or to maybe have a license to I'm not sure run an IC o---- or some kind of I'm talking about the license aspect but they're trying to figure out okay these are the use cases and we're trying to figure out okay a use case needs a framework if it's well if as as soon as you're interfering with the real world and for example that's coming back to the security talks you definitely have some interference with the real world but you have it for lots of blockchain use cases I actually for any anything that's not machine to machine sure you need to ensure that well if there's harm that can be done well safety regulation what can you put in place that you're at least trying to make sure that if something goes wrong there's a basis for for whatever they're trying to I mean here's the Sol's that's right if we go down the existing track it's gonna put getting people back out of their wheelchairs onto their feet back by 30 years right if we simply gave a blank exception for anybody who's doing research on growing back spinal columns you could do whatever you like don't worry about any of that medical ethics stuff just let us know what it's done you would get the problem solved some human cost thirty years earlier than if we go down the current track right and I mean the cost of all the stuff that

[47:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=2860s) we're not doing because regulation is wasting people's lives it's also the cost in human talent of all the people that are right in the regulation or all the people that are trying to engineer around the regulation there's it's a lose-lose can take us in human town so I mean in this context right I think the question is basically poorer countries right you know the kind of you know Bangladesh is the Kenya's you know mmm pacer for example I think has made it really really clear that if you're willing to be flexible regulation you've got better country because they you know basically just said yet just do it figure it out let us know how it goes and that's been a huge part of Kenya's you can all make leap forward we have some good examples out there that are like Sweden or somewhere anybody make it quick the Russians okay quick though as I said there's a methodology for stuff like this and they are able to reap through the regular earth through the all the body of law pretty quickly mm-hmm and we engineer it's you know from the bottom up to do what it was designed to do yes it is described in in this body of law and they say like if you they're basically here here here so they're basically just refactoring the wall yeah that's nice that's me and and and the methodology is from 1950s from Soviet Union that's why let me take another one I want I'm looking for examples where crypto has a chance right crypto has a chance to get through to make a change in society and regulation you know we might be able to overcome it any other No well Finn's way Nia let's Winnie is actually pretty good yes what about is it possible Dubai has good press releases they actually Donna actually done any of it can you actually I mean what about these land registries do we have any yet no no yeah the projects are usually in swanned here's one here's Yanis when are we gonna be able to actually buy and sell and with tokens here in Lithuania well you can already buy and sell and with tokens here in Lithuania unless both parties agreed to

[50:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=3010s) accept Bitcoin that's no problem really yes legally transfer the title sure yes yeah that's one thing and and the the update because the reason what I'm late to the conference today is I had a meeting at the Ministry of Economy with a chief information officer which is also a vice minister for economy and we had a meeting together with an agency Enterprise Lithuania and we're actually discussing the future of tokenization no equity yes equity there yeah let's I'm gonna switch the conversation to that pretty soon because this is probably the only time we're really gonna get to do that and I'm gonna bring you up here in a minute other isn't actually the buying of a property I think that's possible in quite a few countries I heard there's somebody choking yeah we're you know if both parties in Austria if both parties agreed no that's just a transfer of money that's not NATO you can transfer the title as well pretty sure we're in Ukraine not in Switzerland if I haven't heard it in Switzerland in Uganda they're working on it and Sweden but they're working on it I don't think you could do it yet here you can transfer the title no the thing the thing is who who is the who is the registrar or of the property the the the main the main focus is as the colleague already said is if it's money or if it's a Bitcoin it's just matter of it's just a matter of what you pay with you can pay in Bitcoin you can be an apples you can pay in pairs that's fine but the cop but the but the the registration and the the title transfers that done with the token here no it's not done with the token because it's the centralized database yeah no which is maintained by the central frigate sirs okay but kept so I don't get the private key to my land no no no you have we going toward that and not yet but are we going toward that not not yet you're not not yet going toward that not yet because do we think is it what are we going toward I don't think it's a good idea okay think it's um it's a at the moment maybe in some countries which don't have that system as we have now it's a good way to go let's say in the u.s. they

[52:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=3160s) have thirty two hundred different Land Registry so every county have their own Land Registry every county in us out so there is a lady sitting somewhere in the county of administration and taking cabinet and with file cabinets some of the land there's a fire nobody with some with some of the land deeds being 200 years old the cabinet is made of wood of course it's very dry environment wait a minute because the thing is we we here in Lithuania are spoiled by being one of the best land registries in the world because the land transfer takes a day one day and then you can transfer it further the next day settles in one day yep music one conformation yep so so you know so it's it's fast it's all digital all the archives and all the contracts are digital and so to rebuild something just to put it on it's not that broken yeah we don't we can get to other things first yes exactly so there is no no dirty things next and come back to this let's we are using blockchain technology yeah not the distributed ledger but the blockchain technology as a security layer the under register database okay let me take one over here Kalia so it's gonna say um the New America Foundation is working on a report about land title registries and the issues around them that should be out in the next month yeah and one of the big issues is figuring out identity before you start transferring and yeah so I'll just leave it at that Hart are we gonna see some progressive people in the United States put Land Registry that's tokenize land rich I don't know that's a different question and just in terms of somebody actually doing very good things recently the head of research at Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology Doug Mohan testified before Congress talking about the pilot projects doing using blockchain to track packages from origin through customs to the end so um you can watch that on c-span YouTube if you want I want okay so we go to so we go to

[55:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=3309s) securities and specifically equities to equity securities there's three kinds of securities there's equities which is stock there's bonds loan loans which are bonds and then there's derivatives and so we want to talk about equities because equities is the stock market is the base of financial markets around the world for trading the stock of companies and the goal is to create an international standard so let's get some work done here because I'm on a committee in the United States you're here influential here and it started to be in the EU how are we going to get to a an equity token standard and equity legal standard so we can tokenize and trade equity well I think things they did that they the biggest issue at the moment is the legacy infrastructure which we've developed or if the West developed and we inherited already this in Lithuania over the last maybe fixed 50 years with having the central brokerage infrastructure with it share Depository with the Nasdaq and all the other stock exchanges which used centralized databases and and they use basically as I said in my presentation on Monday the original share was the share on paper yeah but it was two types of shares there were all the name chairs or anonymous shares shed the bearer error on airs the bearer shares but the bearer shares are no longer they don't longer exist in the Western world so the thing is with token at the moment the most of the tokens or most of the tokens at least at the ICS which we see are anonymous tokens which are tradable on exchanges of things so one thing you have I don't think any politician will agree to get back to anonymous shares because that's gone that's gonna kind of contradict with all the anti money laundering because they are now so effective yep yeah so yeah I understand but still they will demand basically at first the first requirement is that the shareholder identified so you need tokens to be we will have a bear's name on it yeah that's that's the first thing okay second thing of course is technology allows imagine we have names tokens which is which is technically doable I think put the names is it token

[57:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=3459s) well the name of the person somehow in the token or associate okay so imagine we have this yes so then the entire brokerage infrastructure becomes outdated music and then but the thing is then then you have another layer of legal barriers such as international agreements or sanctions or some let's say gravy countries which are in different lists that that residents of those countries have no access to such markets on the other hand there are some countries which are out of the list but they still cannot act as to equity markets in the West still today that's right that's right and most shares our digital already or not yet I know that 99% of shares up they just are digital now in the big market yes but those are those shares are accounted as as money in the bank accounts they are accounted by custodians yes so they're accounted by middleman yes so if you have if you create an international standard on equity yeah on equity token which should have a name on it yes and the most the biggest requirement they should be named tokens okay and the transfer of tokens should be signed by both parties okay we can do that and that's what I do this now we can do ownership now how are we gonna do the rights of the voting and control and the edge cases and that stuff easy like that so as I have to ask him to break it I'm coming to you I'm after can you please break down the okay so imagine we have a network of shares in a company or or on some public blockchain or something yeah we have shares which have company name on it and which have owner's name on it so you can do a virtual or online remote meeting of shareholders shareholders meeting where every shareholder proves his own create tools great tools for you validate that you're the rightful owner yes exactly even if you bought them this morning okay sure four to five minutes ago five minutes ago and then you even there's a probe there's a list of questions on agenda and then using your shares you vote for

[1:00:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=3609s) it how do we though legally tie that to your right so that if you stand in front of a court of law in a court and you say I've got the private key to this you also have then the rights to a company for example that may be in trouble or that may have lost a bunch of shares or all these other how does the judge then say oh yes you have those rights yeah those this should be legally described in a new I think there should be a new set of laws I'll pay but but the thing is we have reports already that some courts in China have already presented they have declared some information on a public blockchain as an evidence in the court so if they all the transfer if all the track record of the shares all the transfer history of your shares which end up by your digital signature being the last or anything happens so you will recognize they will recognize that I think and they it's the only a matter of time how much we go scares that to change the laws well it depends it depends on who makes the first move if we found a country real reputable country probably such as Switzerland or Sweden or some other which is not why I'm choosing not European country because we have European institutions the European Commission and others long time so I think maybe Japan or Switzerland may be much more flexible in this regard 3 or Canada or Australia they could well I'm really much more optimistic about security tokens in the Union euros diction because technically our securities laws are very clear that person a regulator and all the related person have the right ABCDE so we can put all this information and permissions into the blockchain of course it will be permission blockchain because not everyone has a right at least in the European irrediction just to go and see how long you have to make a government block change well after some discussions with a linear regulator and Ministry of Finance and Ministry of Economy as well and in the beginning this won't be issued as a governmental blockchain but the sandbox can be issued pretty quickly so check it from the IT point of view it can be done fairly easily but then as a colleague gradually said the brokerage system is

[1:02:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=3759s) outdated we can issue security coins in a week basically but then we don't have any liquidity and trade so we just need to create Rockridge system blockchain part maybe will go off chain that government will audit and say yes it complies maybe should be audited by third party and then that the trades and liquidity can appear into the shares market so I have my shares I want to sell them to you you have you do have rights let's say to buy them so you can login via your broker or privately and do it so basically we just need to update the brokers those law requires this intermediary broker right yeah a nice European so so we're not going to get around the requirements for for brokers so a broker has to represent each party in a transaction is that correct so we'll each need a brokerage account and we can like you to know so it's kind of like an exchange account I mean I don't have private keys and and blockchain transfer I have it's a centralized system well the problem is that every share every every shares of public companies are accounted at Central Depository and only limited number of subjects such as brokers haven't have access to that to make changes indirectly so you can put anything on top is that going to change well I think that's going to change as soon as we propose the working system of equity first and apply private level and then if it proves itself working on a private level it could go to publicly traded companies as well so we're going to show it here and Lithuania with private equity question is if it has to change actually the law for that because I mean the the central securities depository they can still exist if they're standardized what they actually represent then you can replicate the same thing on a blockchain because they have today the rights that's easy to replicate right executed the rights that's also possible from worried about how easy it is to translate into suffer as I am how difficult it is to move institution yes and middlemen who are written into the law so there's a hospital for this right we've done a bit of thinking about this in London there is a hack so you basically put the share register of the company on chain and use some kind of whitelist mechanism for transferring church controlling the circulation through transfer and then you have an office which is a laser printer in it and it just monitors the

[1:05:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=3909s) condition of the chain and every time somebody makes an update to the contract it just prints out the kind of share register sticks it in an envelope and then mails it to the registrar it's not beautiful it solves all the problems because you could do whatever you like on train as fast as you can do it and then you just print off the state as every day or every week or every transaction depending on what the local law says and you have a robot that meals it and so you don't have to modify the law you're saying you're just fully compliant at that ball because you know at that point the blockchain has the same legal state as is using an Excel spreadsheet the the official share register is a piece of paper that you mail or question you just soldiers will automatically generate on chain isn't that amazing no it's a bit it's horrible what's amazing is changing the law so that it works yep instead of the band-aid patches that's in the walls and it's a way to get started you're saying the losses are the walls entirely made of bondage patches tomorrow and get it going we didn't get it going exactly right and if nothing explodes then that sets the price we want international trading so how does the EU going to finally figure this out do something right seems unlikely I don't I just asked a hard question we know we don't have Polar's clinch Anna's here who would be competent to answer this question or Tony G yeah but still on one hand European bureaucracy is pretty slow and but yet wait what's on the other hand oh wait a minute wait a minute could we get some other smaller states to start working in agreement and using the same standards and systems and started influencing the EU by doing it yeah but we need to find a way to minimize the change required to do it so their idea which I'm working on is that we stick to the existing legislation especially the legislation regarding to publics public trade of public company equity and we start with private company equity I do it on blockchain so you go online you register a company and you receive your shares certificate from the Registrar on the blockchain and then you make all the trade privately peer-to-peer on the blockchain version test it out test the playground and then if it works we fix patching errors and

[1:07:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=4059s) we improve the protocol and then we can upgrade it step it up to replace the depository because we're actually within existing legal framework so we're just improving the system like now the registers electronic it's up to the country to decide electronica boy the thing is that this should be basically we're narrowed ourselves to one additional line and the co in the code or in the law on on share companies ok which is Edition like the type of shares our paper shares I've shared the paper share certificates or omit like intangible shares on the databases and we add one thing so it's a digital digital share certificates on Allah and that's it and could we do this in Austria well I think it's possible in theory but I don't think it will happen to be honest Austria's look more conservative and in those regards but I think the approach itself works actually that you start with something like it's a bottom-up approach from a technological point of view but a top-down approach from the one you're trying to focus on project wise and I think the the pure lean is in this is if you like once you've actually modified or you were able to prove that a depository can be based on a blockchain that can be replicated all of the you because that is it is its state and not not just you law ok I'm implemented I want to get practical here because I'm on the committee subcommittee of the token alliance in the United States with the chamber of digital commerce and we've just I just proposed yesterday that we get serious about nything equity and they're all for it I've already gotten an email from Perry on this morning saying they will project manage it they will offer the data rooms and the conference schedules and everything they will help facilitate it they'll put their resources into this and so we can get the blockchain caucus behind this we get the people at polymath at our token at t0 all into this so can we get a critical mass or actually small number of EU states maybe Gibraltar maybe Lithuanian maybe Estonia could we all get together maybe in September for a couple of days and hammer out really work on the foundation of an international standard does that make sense of course I want it to be a high level

[1:10:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=4209s) standard so it doesn't have anything to do with the theory and blockchain engine beaten what is a share for the 21st century what is the share ownership of a company that that is as common as we can get it so we're not doing all this jurisdictional offsetting and complicated okay so hone so there's two ways we could think about that we got the UK - sorry so first model is you know you could set up a standard for managing an existing company share registers on train yeah so that's relatively simple because you're just managing the share register the shares are still defined by but like you say just one line of one line of law - Matt - add one yeah that's easy and hard to this if you're talking about building a new kind of property which is like domain names right domain names for a new kind of property they were invented they were gonna feel we're not talking about shares I mean you're talking about shares what you're talking about shares where you would have a harmonization of regulation across the senator from countries to do it well advanced sounds super hard oh right because I mean please let me disagree with that because they share like a domain name is I'd come tangible but it's more tangible than a share sure but cher is a legal fiction and the common denominator with a cher is just it's an amount of stock it's an amount of asset ownership against that that the owner has staked to the company so that's this is a simple common denominator so what we basically need on a standard cher we need the minimum set of metadata yes which is the company's name company's code the share capital and the number of shares or a number of sets which is the represent and then you need a bearer right but even with the bearers information that's it the question then is where is the company domiciled right specifically who does it pay tax yes and that's why they shares on blockchain is different from company registry because they don't pay tax no we're talking about shares on blockchain and the company pays taxes where it's on on under which jurisdiction it is registered so the companies are still

[1:12:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=4359s) registered yes yes today we have international and company and somebody itself is a legal fiction yeah in the first place so it needs to have at least the domicile we're now working in Lithuania on account on a legal concept of the company will not be obliged to have a physical address not anymore yeah so we're working on that so you don't have to rent an apartment or a box somewhere or in a garage we have addresses where with hundreds of companies that register the same address which is which is so what this this will happen soon and I think with the same change in the law will put blockchain there as well but but the thing is we still need you still need a court which you should take the company into if you want to we have a legal action against this so you need a jurisdiction yeah at least on a level of account at least in the county level so you need like say the company will be red incorporated in Vilnius where the public email it with the registered email address right where where would you take us to court if you're taking sure sure also the companies need to need a place to store their documents like their tax reports the registry stores those okay but your day-to-day paper's like your accounting papers like your quarterly reports quote company like your labor agreements and so on and so forth so your Social Security like the tax inspection can access it and do some checks on your activity so the Registrar would maintain that the register the register only does the registration he knows the company he sets up the company so the domicile the cop yeah yeah the government I think there's maintain that register I think the government will maintain the registry but there is a new space for private business to provide companies support software and cloud storage to store their data as we have with Masri Masri is one such ok question is clear Kalea we're finally calling on you oh alright we're getting you a microphone I just wanted to share that verifiable credentials the standard for expressing things like the government has chartered you as a corporation in your jurisdictions and it's licensed you there's a whole bunch of work being done

[1:15:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=4509s) by the province of British Columbia and an open-source github repository called verifiable organizations network to support the issuance of these digital credentials in digitally native form to businesses so it's very interesting in terms of how you translate the world of paper around the things that you just named governments do and also the decentralized identity standard the did in terms of how people's identities are expressed online are going to be really critical in innovating in terms of because those are open standards that are emerging for how to express these across multiple right Ledger's for sure okay another question from any question from the audience the standard is decentralized identity did know the the one for organization verifiable organizations network and fawn it's done by the province of British Columbia and you can find it on github verifiable organizations network very interesting questions over here ok first I have a comment rather than a question and first I have to note that I am a legal scholar myself I'm working on a little bit of those things that you are guys talking about but that said I apologize for booted blind to put it so blunt but you know I haven't heard so much profanity about what law is and how legal system works in twenty years of my legal scholarship can you be specific let me start with Vijay banane who has described law as you know as a very formal system of rules this is exactly what it is not there was a guy by the way austrian legal philosopher called Hans Kelsen who described law exactly in this way and it is the same guy who was actually defending Nazis in the Nuremberg trial because if we accept law as a system of

[1:17:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=4659s) formal rules then Nazis did nothing wrong we just did everything within the law of the time can you bring this though to our conversation about your conversation first of all you know you kind of totally mixing up two things guys you know one is the public law which is what you are talking about and the other is the private law which is basically what the contract is about uh-huh you know contract is the source of law if you understand law as a non-formal system you have the freedom the law allows you to create itself and I'm sure by means of the contract but if the contract has a provision in it which is illegal in the jurisdiction the contract is usually avoided right not necessarily so juicing so now it is void only in the cases where it is specifically written in the law that it's void for most other applications it's not void it's entirely valid it's entirely applicable no so I mean guys you have the freedom of contract in the most broadest sense but you seem not to understand what it is you know another comment I wanted to make about this is you kind of all seem to think that crypto is the first real challenge for the legal system by any measure it isn't sure no just look back a little bit please can you give it more specific to our conversation here we're really interested in legally representing shares through tokens that you own the private key to can you help us understand that issue in some way I don't see any problem about that ideally this shouldn't be regulated at all well right now we're partying you know so so regulation is what you know want what is wanted by the despot so to speak so the formal system of law is the system that is that completely totalitarian you know we don't want that by any measure but we need specific constructive help here if you have any other one we can't go into the anarchist Austrian

[1:20:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=4809s) yes no it's it's actually the opposite you know so guys what was discussed here was discussed in legal circles fifty years ago sure I'm not kidding I mean this idea that law is code or law as a software has been brought up in the 50s and probably the most prominent piece of work was done by Lauren one Lawrence Lessig the Harvard Law Professor sure in the late 90s you know and it was nice actually by the by the legal profession as just another formal system of law which is not what the lawyers so if we are talking about these specific issues so we have to talk about them in in a legal sense you know not in not approach it as a technological problem you know you have the freedom so define it and bring it to the lawyers I have two minutes left I'm gonna give us the benediction please Thanks thanks for the comments and of course I don't know how about the rest of the panel but I'm pretty good I'm pretty confident myself about differentiating but the public and private law and and the methods of legal regulation and but but there is another side of the coin of the that you mentioned and the public law which has an imperative method of regulation is also necessary for the state to limit the state's power and to limit the amount of regulation that a state could impose on private business and on private sector that's how that's why the imperative regulation is all about and if the end the big law on companies says that there is the only three types of shares three forms in which shares could exist and that's an law on companies is it is part of a public law so it's legally limited to it technology always goes ahead of law always present something which is not regulated not regulated yet and sometimes law or some legacy regulation stands in a way of technological progress so that's why discussions like this is important so which public regulation should be changed or adapted to so so we facilitate the technological

[1:22:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icp1hzXsiMQ&t=4959s) advantage which is proposed now in the laboratories thank you okay I'm gonna just take this opportunity to stick a stake in the ground and say we are going to meet with our American counterparts maybe we'll do it in Iceland will do it in London we'll do it in New York we will do it in September and we will get the representatives from the states here in Europe and we will go start this process and make it real sounds good to me you will hear more about that from us thank you very much amazing good and I need you

---
End of [767] Vinay Gupta + Regulation & Innovation panel @ #PillarUnconference Day 3 LIVE | Pillar, part 2 of 2. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.
Read next: next on the same works, [607] Pavlo Tanasyuk - Internet of Agreements - Space (2018) (no text here); the most closely related, [678](https://guptaoption.com/texts/678.md) WNWB S01E08: Mattereum with Vinay Gupta (2022); his whole career in one file, https://guptaoption.com/story.md.