# Autonomous A1 - Taming Capitalism with Vinay Gupta of Mattereum (part 2 of 3)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [714], part 2 of 3. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2021-11-26 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Contracting layer as a reform of capitalism.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - Three Rules for Designing the Social Enterprise (2009): Two-page paper defining a social enterprise by how it converts financial capital into social capital and...
  - Lean Green Mattereum: "We aren't just here to change the world, we're here to fix it" (2020): 162-page deck tying it together: poverty and climate are one problem, a lean green development path is...
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - A little insight into the Gupta Doctrine (2014): His "very conservative vision" for global change: six or maybe eight machines everyone on earth should... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
  - The Future of Stuff (2020): Book on the philosophy under Mattereum: risk and morality in deals about physical things. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - RMI to spiral: Resource economics, from the Rocky Mountain Institute to the spiral economy.
  - social enterprise: Enterprises that turn money into social capital and back: the capital conversion matrix from the Rocky Mountain...
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - environment / green capitalism: Green economics: from oil efficiency to markets for facts about products. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Ideas developed here: 30-year plan (Hexayurt; target revised upward, now 300 million)
- Topics: Capitalism, consumption & resources (29%); Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (12%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: DigiGold (4 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2021); circular economy (5 here; 17 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); second-hand (4 here; 15 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); Capital Conversion Matrix (2 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2009); 30-year plan (2 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); second hand (3 here; 12 sources in all, earliest dated 2011); recycling (3 here; 14 sources in all, earliest dated 2012); Mattereum (15 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); dispute resolution (5 here; 48 sources in all, earliest dated 2013); LaunchPod (1 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2021)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): DigiGold
- Importance: core-text score 0.52 (1.00 is the top), number 70 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [723] ["Saving the Climate with Real World Asset NFTs" by Vinay... (2020)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/723.md): same career work: Lean Green Mattereum: "We aren't just here to change the world, we're here to fix it"
  - [236] [The Mattereum Top Down Deck Day 6 (Lean Green Mattereum) (2020)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/236.md): same career work: Lean Green Mattereum: "We aren't just here to change the world, we're here to fix it"
- On the same works, just before: [762] [MetaGame meets Vinay Gupta (2021)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/762.md); [791] [COP26 Event: Green Blockchain, Green Economy (2021)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/791.md); [793] [COP26 Event: The Circular Economy - Finance and Data for... (2021)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/793.md)
- On the same works, just after: [702] [Conversation With Pat Kane & Vinay Gupta (2021)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/702.md); [778] [Vinay Gupta on the Future of the Metaverse (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/778.md); [678] [WNWB S01E08: Mattereum with Vinay Gupta (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/678.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Autonomous A1 - Taming Capitalism with Vinay Gupta of Mattereum, video, 2021-11-26, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [714], https://guptaoption.com/texts/714.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 2 of 3
[40:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=2423s) and the platform dispute resolution for secondhand goods is generally speaking terrible the result of that is that we are bleeding natural resources and money so your microphone is probably good for 30 years very plausibly it's good for 30 years um however it's unlikely to last for 30 years because you're going to move house or you're going to buy a new one you know because you're upgrading or 51 things could happen that will cause you to want rid of that microphone and in all probability you're going to wind up giving it away rather than selling it because it's worth so little with the crappy descriptions and crappy dispute resolution and so uh crappy warranty that you as an individual can provide that it's better to give it away for social capital than it is to try and sell it for financial capital and what's happening as a result of that is that we don't have the incentives with the manufacturers to produce high quality goods which last forever and retain their value with every single one of these secondary sales the manufacturers are incentive incentivized to make goods which you're going to use and who you're done with and then you're just going to give it to somebody else so to get this kind of economy of permanence we need the manufacturers to be incentivized to produce goods that run forever and then for you as a buyer you buy the goods that microphone has a 30 your life span and you've owned it for two years it's you know got 28 years left on the clock it ought to be worth like 95 percent of what you paid for it eighty-five percent of the service life 95 percent of the cost and at this point we become custodians of assets rather than being part of this take me with cycle everything you buy you expect to sell this totally changes our relationship

[42:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=2540s) with the physical world because now because everything we buy we accept expect to sell when we buy things we're not consuming them we're investing in them high quality you're gonna resell it you're not a consumer you're an investor i've invested in this jacket i'm gonna wear this jacket eventually this jacket will be the wrong size i'll be too thin i'll be too fat i'll you know go work out and put on a bunch of muscle okay i'm gonna get rid of this jacket i'm gonna sell it to somebody and then i'm gonna buy another one that fits and if the goods have an exact description of their quality and their appearance and their performance if we know exactly how they work there's no problem buying these things second hand i'm wearing secondhand genes right now because i kind of try and buy secondhand stuff partly for ecological reasons and partly for market research bay has a super liquid market for 1970s and 1980s and 1990s denim jeans levi's and those genes have been worn off and on for decades by different people they're still perfect they remain to last and they really do last but the vast majority of people don't want to wear the same pair of jeans for 25 years they change their style they get older and fatter they you know just their life changes and they want something different but the fabrics are so good and the stitching is so good and the quality is so good that these things are still kicking around on ebay for about 25 bucks in every possible style and sale sold by enormous warehouses that do nothing other than buy and sell denim jeans and grade them as they come through we've already got a kind of permanent economy for denim and i have no doubt at all that i could you know sell these jeans back to the people that sold them to me for pretty much what i paid for them and they just put them around the loop one more time after the fact that ebay takes 20 of the cost of the goods on the way through 10 of the goods plus a whole bunch of faffing around that friction on this circular economy process is what causes the circular economy to not exist properly for the circular economy to really work it has to be practically friction free so that each buyer only pays a little bit of the cost of the home process rather than us being in a position where every buyer has to front you know the cost of goods plus another 20 or 30 percent to make up for the

[44:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=2690s) friction in the process sorry i feel ranting about this stuff because it's all you know it's all inside of my head it's just oh it all makes perfect sense yeah i apologize if i'm ranting but i'm yeah i'm kind of super into this stuff right now that's great that's great but yeah i wanted to ask about other things like so efficient secondary markets and circular economy that's a huge part of what we need to like fix the world so what are the other options and things that you need to do besides that okay so investment production consumption waste efficient consumption the goods never become waste because they're sold and they're sold and they're sold and they're sold and they're sold and by the time they eventually become waste you know they've wound up in you know the slum of some poor third world country where somebody bought it for 50 cents used it until it broke and the object is finally hit end of life that process is how we manage the material footprint of the human race we cannot feed and clothe and house the world in an economy which is consumption based everything has to be an investment

[46:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=2765s) and this idea that we have to unmake the consumption economy and replace it with an investor economy this is a fundamental transformation how we think about capitalism i am not consuming goods i'm investing i've invested in this microphone this microphone is a tool i use this tool to make things those things eventually pay for my kids education now i'm going to sell the thing that i invested into somebody else they're going to buy it as an investment you see what i'm saying consumption is a thing that we cannot afford in a world with a billion starving people investment is how we turn what we have and what we need into more of what we have and what we need everything that we buy ought to be something that generates wealth not just for us but also for the world and if we take this mindset of a permanent investment economy rather than a consumption economy you can begin to figure out how to close the loops on the certain circular economy because the thing about investors is investors hate losing money we hate losing money because our goods are degrading and then being thrown away rather than sold pretty soon we're not going to buy those goods if there are alternatives and the manufacturers are not going to run out of customers because we've got seven billion people and most of them are incredibly poor which means they have no stuff so we need to retool the machinery so every object purchases an investment and it's resold until the poorest people in the world have everything that they need to be pretty comfortable and enjoy their lives see how radical this is consumption as a concept must die yeah it doesn't sound like it should be like a hard sell to people to like tell them okay this is an investment stop thinking like stop thinking like a consumer and start thinking like an investor this is the key to the story right we invest for money and our natural resources in making tools to generate more wealth and we turn the handle on that machinery to turn wealth into more wealth until the entire world is taken care of and every step on the way is profitable you know that is not the soul of capitalism consumerism is in many ways a crime against capitalism because consumption in the classical model destroys capital right

[48:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=2910s) turns into waste you start with capital and you turn it into waste like why did anybody ever think that was a good idea start with capital and you turn into more capital do that as long as you can until the physical base breaks down and you know the genes wear through the microsoft the microphone stops working until that happens all that you're doing is investment and reinvestment you're never getting into this pattern we call consumption so i think the higher model of the consumer economy is just a historical accident because we didn't have good enough international markets to soak up all the amazing stuff the americans were making in the 1950s and 60s so if it makes economic sense for the capital it's like why is it not being done already um it is for certain kinds of goods right so if you're buying for example industrial tools almost nobody buys industrial tools like say an industrial hammer you know the big things you use for forging tools almost nobody buys that thing with the expectation that they're going to use it until it breaks they're going to use it until a better one comes along or until they open another location or until they need to standardize the equipment in their fleet but all that sort of stuff they're never just going to buy this and we're going to use it until it breaks so in the areas where it matters big stuff

[49:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=2990s) right take laptops in a big company they buy the laptops and at the end of that process they've got some guy that comes and collects them all pays the company some money and then resells them it raises them resells them they wind up on ebay you know you buy old ibm laptops on ebay you could be the fourth owner and you don't care because that thing still works like new you know we've already got four corporations equipment that they use a very substantial degree of this kind of permanent economy you know those kind of um the hermann miller chairs the aerons which are like the standard chair for dot coms how long do those things hold their value the chair is good for 30 years you just buy those things used for your office when you need them because they're exactly the same as new and the value reflects that you know neither about 800 bucks used they used to be about 650. and that model is economy of permanence they're so well made they don't wear out you're not going to burn your investors money buying these things new but your staff complain if you try and put them on crappy office depot chairs

[50:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3056s) i'm a programmer i have a keyboard where is my air on and that was like the standard mindset in the old economy that was what it would be to be was to be like silicon valley the chair was as much a part of your working tools as your monitor was right this is my workstation where is my good chair come on guys you know what kind of company is this right and that thing and you know you see what i mean about like there was just a pool of these chairs in circulation in cities like san francisco and london and you know your startup would buy them and then your staff would sit in them and then your your company would either succeed and sell them when you moved into a furnished office or you know you would go bankrupt and then you'd sell them as part of the bankruptcy deal there was just a static pool because nobody ever throws out a chair of that quality right and the thing about the making money i remember doing the business case for this one time where i just worked out that if we got five minutes a day more productivity out of people then the chairs paid for themselves in like eight months i've been on five minutes a day you're right yeah definitely sounds working

[52:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3123s) and well that's why we wind up with a culture where people manufacture office chairs at that level quality and expense they do it because it pays they're an investment they're an investment in staff productivity so do you get a sense of this model of it's a it's an investor economy rather than a consumer economy yeah right and that's the core of what i have to say is if you collect good enough data about consumption you stop doing consumption as a waste stream and you start doing consumption as an investment stream and that's basically it i mean that's my crazy bond story about the future everything else is details sounds simple enough let's see how it happens and there was also a bit about uh social enterprises and triple bottom line accounting and things like that you want to touch on that how that plays a role

[52:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3178s) sure let's talk a little bit about kinds of capital that's the place to start so in the in the big deck we talk about investment production consumption of waste and then we split investment into natural capital and financial capital and we split waste into waste and co-products so you know recycling reuse resale other stuff now this gets a little fiddly because there are actually at greased four kinds of capital depending on how you count their six or eight so the classic model is natural capital financial capital and physical capital which is things like hard to replicate machines like cern cern is physical capital you can't just turn money into another cern and then there's social capital which is kind of like human beings and their relationships and to think of human beings in their relationships as capital is already sort of inherently evil like that's not something you should think of as capital you could probably also apply this to natural capital like really are we just valuing this as capital maybe maybe so there are definitely some reasons for [Music] you know conservatism in thinking about these things as capital right that is yeah it's not a great way of doing things but that model was also 20 25 years uh old so the capital conversion matrix

[54:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3262s) is a way of thinking about enterprises which have multiple kinds of capital inside of them so if you have three kinds of capital that your organization runs on right you've got social capital you've got financial capital and you've got natural capital then you have a thing which is a three by three matrix right social financial and natural capital go in on one access and social natural financial capital come out on the other access and what you have is a transformation matrix so if we have the social capital and we turn the social capital into financial capital through things like sales and we 2x our financial capital in the process if that process is clean we're doubling our financial capital but we're not depleting our social capital and this is winning right but if we run that process where we double our financial capital but we're slowly destroying our brand because we're making promises we can't keep and everything is getting trashed in that situation um what is happening is that we are running out of social capital and eventually our company becomes social capital bankrupt which is to say nobody believes our promises anymore and our brand is worthless right and this is the sort of thing which is happening to boeing right now because boeing has trashed many many decades of excellent excellent social capital as being the world's best maker of airplanes by producing airplanes which are so bad they're unworthy of the name boeing and that's a social capital bankruptcy which in boeing's case may be rapidly followed by financial capital bankruptcy like this is a bad scene so this notion of a social and financial capital relationship also applies to natural capital right if we buy wood and then we make things out of the wood and we sell the things that machine only runs until we run out of wood and when there's no more wood to be had because we've cut down the last tree we're going to have much worse problems than running out of furniture and this is the capital conversion matrix it's a way of thinking about you know are we depleting one kind of capital as we try and create another kind of capital and how can we have multiple kinds of capitals support each other in a kind of interrelated way does that sort of make sense yep so that model you know you want to run businesses that use all of their kinds of capital

[56:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3412s) efficiently and the ideal world is you turn social capital into financial capital through sales and financial capital into social capital by building strong networks and if you get that right you could create brands like say grameen phone which used very very strong social networks to sell phones cheaply and because they provided excellent phones with good service packages and everybody loved it they could then spend their financial capital building out this social structure where you know they would throw parties they would have events everybody would come together to do things and that made it easier for them to cell phones in future right stronger societies with more phones was a big win for grammy and phone and again we can run the world on a permanent investment basis rather than a consumption basis by making sure that we never deplete the social capital in the process of making financial capital if you don't screw people over and you make them money they will keep on good terms with you right precisely trying to think if there's any other questions that i'd like to touch on before i ask you about uh your advice for metagame is there anything you want to

[58:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3488s) so there's one last little detail here which is this a lot of times the manufacturers have been very scared of manufacturing things which are permanent because the feeling is that they need people to upgrade every few years to keep the world working right you know if we don't sell a new phone to each person every three years eventually we're going to have a problem so they don't make 30-year phones and you know certainly in areas where the technology is improving very rapidly you know you think like 30-year phone probably not a great plan because it's going to be an absolute anti but this is why upgradeability is so important so until every single person in the world has a phone it doesn't matter how crappy the phone is there's a market for that phone you know your phone just has to be cheaper than the equivalent new phone in order for your phone to sell if your phone has an excellent data attached to it to tell you whether or not it's real or not to tell you whether or not it works or not so what this creates is a different model which is there is an infinite sink of demand which is until every human being has one of everything that you sell there will be a second hand market for your goods somewhere in the world at some price and if we can efficiently access those second hand markets now think of high-end digital cameras right uh i shoot old digital camera gear because i got it 10 years ago and i really like it the nikon one range and the nikon one cameras they're tiny cameras they're even smaller than most of the interchangeable lens stuff and they're smaller than micro four thirds they have a tiny little sensor the sensor is 10 years old the color rendering is beautiful the images are incredibly sharp but it shoots at like 10 megapixels or 16 megapixels it doesn't have great low light performance but the images in daylight look like they were taken on a big dslr they're just fantastic so those camera bodies are now like a hundred dollars on ebay right the lenses are like a hundred dollars on ebay down from the six or eight hundred dollars of those things would have been when they were new and as a result there's a whole community of people that are still shooting these things and using these things and extending the life of these things because the gear was manufactured with the quality where it will keep running 10 15 years from now i think those cameras will still be in use but mostly they're going to be in developing oral contexts right the phone cameras will improve and

[1:00:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3638s) improve and improve but there's only so much you can do with the glass on a phone so when you really need a good quality image you're going to wind up using a big lens and the thing that i'm kind of trying to illustrate here is we're already 10 years into the life of those goods and they're still valuable even in the age of phone cameras they're still valuable if they'd been manufactured to slightly lower quality and they'd broken by now they would have zero value so it's not that nikon is losing new camera sales because those cameras exist right if i buy a 10 year old nikon camera body and the images are great i am now a customer for life for nikon's new equipment i'm going to buy another nikon camera body when i'm done with this one and i give it to my kid or i give it to my cousin or i sell it back on the market because there is an efficient market the odds are that i'm going to buy another camera from that brand because i know these things are great and that tail is the long tail the long life of these goods where although nikon is not making a financial capital return on those second-hand goods they are getting an excellent social capital return this is the key point so excellent quality second-hand goods in most contexts are not going to generate a direct financial return on investment to the manufacturers but that doesn't mean that they can't we could do some engineering on the blockchain to enable people to receive a nic every time that their second-hand goods are sold you could make a micropayment to the original manufacturer that would be great it's an excellent incentive for permanence but also the social capital return from quality goods being sold over and over again and still being in great condition and still working fantastically all of that is essentially the best possible quality free advertising which is i bought one and i used it and it was great and if i ever have enough money to buy a new one i'm gonna buy a new one from those guys this kind of brand value you know it's it's inevitably going to be a middle-class world filled with aspiration we've got the cheap solar panels we're gonna figure out our waste problem and once we've figured out the solar panels and the waste problem we've kind of got control of the global economy so we're no longer destroying things and ourselves what you're going to be left with is a world of constant upward mobility and aspiration as wealth builds on wealth builds on

[1:03:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3788s) wealth builds on wealth in an environment where we've decoupled the generation of wealth from the destruction of nature or society and at that point the enormous value in durable goods is evidence that the brand has good intent and excellent engineering i think that's going to become a huge part of what makes brands valuable so that was the last thing that i wanted to talk about big sense it makes a lot of sense yeah like people take brands seriously and like apple wouldn't be where it is if people weren't if people cared about the phone more than they cared about the brand i mean they make great phones but yeah i do see what you mean and i mean there's an entire world of people that just buy whatever it is that apple makes that sort of looks like what they need they assume that the apple one will be the best one available and they just buy the apple one right yeah they don't even read into the spec or whatever they just assume it's the best and they buy it i'm paying you know 30 more than i pay if i bought an android one but i'm never going to make a mistake so at that point i'm just going to buy whatever it is that apple sells and that's a huge number of people they built a 2 trillion dollar company on people that wanted to buy technology but didn't want to learn about technology and you know everybody's like that like you know we know tech do you know bicycles i don't know bicycles right i don't really know you know like there are lots of things that i just i just i don't know printers i don't really know printers right i don't even want to know like i want to buy one that works and it's very good like i don't want to do market research into like all the technical details when i'm buying one like i just want a great one just want a great one right and you know what makes a great one great isn't just its immediate performance it's his performance in two years you know i want to buy one and i want to solve the problem and i want the problem to stay solved and you know this was the whole revolution with ebay and not ebay and amazon reviews amazon reviews gave us really strong evidence about whether this was the great one and i think that's created an enormous amount of competition at the top to try and produce these things that will successfully get that magic one thousand five star reviews and you know like this is part of healing the world is that we just have to stop manufacturing garbage how hard is it so that was yeah that's that was the last thing i had to say that's my story i just wanted to say that it might even not be just about the

[1:05:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=3938s) quality of the product itself but about the the brand image of the company like uh you're gonna buy a tesla because you know they are going they're doing great progress in going over to the renewables and all that but like you volkswagen i'm not gonna buy volkswagen like you cheated on your co2 test like i'm never gonna buy a car if you screwed over the co2 testing guy maybe you're going to screw me over too that's some good yeah rock solid so the thing i really want people to leave this with right and you know i just wrote a book about this called the future of stuff yeah yeah so i just wrote a book called the future stuff it's on sale now it's really short uh it's a it's part of a series of these little pocket books and it talks about all this stuff in a bunch more detail so the thing that i really want people to kind of feel is that throwing things away is not natural nature you know like okay things get thrown away in nature but everything that gets thrown away in nature winds up as food for something else there is no notion of just landfill uselessness and that's the end of the story even a skeleton eventually turns into a tree and that unnatural feeling of like what do you mean this is just thrown away and it has no further value and nothing eats it and nothing uses it it just sits there forever rotting like that should give us a weird creepy feeling like walking through a graveyard only worse it doesn't exist in nature right and you know it's like okay well we better learn how to figure out how to stop doing that right either either we make these things such that something can eat them or we make some some things which are capable of eating these things is it sweden or norway they're running their country on garbage burning they built these amazing super high temperature incinerators where you can throw in pretty much anything that's basically made of carbon and it will burn it very efficiently and very cleanly and you don't get much pollution off these things you don't get like you know if you've got low temperature fire you get a whole bunch of poisonous chemicals if you've got high temperature fire all you get is carbon dioxide or water at the far end of it and they've just got these enormous garbage burning factories that are just that's like half of their national grid or something crazy and it's like that's a really ugly way of closing the loop but it does close the loop don't forget the the plastic getting fungi oh yeah yeah yeah yeah plastic eating fungi magic worms to eat i mean it's

[1:08:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=4088s) let's not get me started on the plastic recycling rabbit hole i go you know i could go an hour just on plastic recycling um let us talk about metagame yes uh the last time i think you seriously spoke about metagames when i was basically just starting it and you're like oh we're gonna do like reputation no no don't do reputation no no scoring of humans that's not the way to go just use insurance like grown-ups [Laughter] yes sir yes sir and yeah yeah i took that advice seriously and the definitely never going to be like uh rate this person one out of five good ah i'm so happy to hear that and doesn't it feel good to have a system where people aren't just spying on each other and rewarding each other with magic likes that are not related to performance but are just related to social capital yeah i was thinking originally that people would only be able to rate other people if they entered the economic contract but that's still like just crap but yeah you were rewarded a bunch of seeds that a long time ago when you gave me that advice and a bunch of others and you never actually claimed them and they actually started pumping a few days ago first they went from five dollars to nine dollars in a matter of a week and then from nine dollars to 18 in one day then 25 then 60 and then yesterday they hit 80. good work i i don't even know how many seeds i have do you have any idea i think it was like 20 or 30. wow look at that goodness gracious it's not funny pay for a vacation yeah you got like a thousand dollars for talking to me for an hour um so tell me how the project is going because i mean i was taking a look over the wiki the wiki is fabulous like it's a really serious piece of work yeah thank you i wrote pretty much every piece of text on there wow that must have driven you completely insane i recognize just like how much thought has gone into this yeah doing pretty good like the last couple of weeks has been it's been accelerating really fast because it's been going on for over a year now and the first like obviously it's been really slow in the beginning and started getting more and

[1:10:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=4238s) more people and actually getting people to believe in this thing and just getting the basic infrastructure up getting the first tokens getting the market up and all that but we got you've got clients right i mean this this thing is actually solving problems for customers now the customers there is no customers it's just a community basically [Laughter] right next old man thinking customer um so yeah we sell meaning among other things i guess meaning as a service meaning [Laughter] where did you come from again ah the future it's filled with weirdos yeah meaning as a service terrifying absolutely terrifying yeah this is how you know i'm getting old like wait meaning is a service oh my god these awful children that's fantastic but the the quote-unquote customers are the people who are interested in building decentralized organizations and applications and are generally interested in like building a better future so like the main selling point i still think is the community itself like people want to be here for the community we want to meet other cool people and exchange ideas and build things together but as of late like people also also started getting a bunch of money out of it like so far it's been everybody was getting tokens but tokens weren't worth anything and now the tokens have started to be worth something wow well congratulations thank you thank you we're going to be charging the access to the community like monthly fees and things like that and there's like almost infinite ways to monetize the tokens itself like the digital services and products so yeah not worrying about that yeah just trying to build the basic infrastructure and tools and we'll figure out the token stuff later but yeah it's been growing pretty good nice nice success i mean i thought you had like a huge number of people running around on the uh discord like i mean you've got a real community behind this thing yeah there's about a thousand people in discord but only like 170 or something out of them we have the actual roles so we got the the players limited to the numbers number

[1:13:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=4388s) and the patrons as well partly because it's pretty easy to gain source grid field but mainly because you really want to build a like a tight community of really highly motivated people and not just bring anybody in and when you have a limited number then you know like exactly what people you need to engage with instead of just like backshotting the whole community yeah absolutely when you say patrons what is a patron is a patron the same as customer no it's like an angel investor i guess so you get players players and patrons and players are the people that are working for the projects and the patrons are people that are like oh this is so cool but i don't have time to have this money ah i see i see so metagame is building actual things so it's like a community that's going to produce a number of profitable enterprises yeah hopefully got it yeah i guess our first our first product well beside the what i'm talking about in a second the first real uh product we're building you are these profiles which should be able to be used for other dolls and people who want to have like a decentralized profile page it's sort of like linkedin but you can use it for more things than linkedin itself and you can like enter economic contracts with people directly through it sell stuff on your page have depth integrated and whatnot but i guess the like the the four core things that we built is this sort of playbook for bootstrapping dolls which is that uh like use a source credit for tracking contributions and then use arrogant for minting the tokens and use balancer for telling the tokens for exchanging it between the players and the people who want to support financially and this this sort of system and like uh i'm writing a guide for the people who want to like also start their own companies in this way it's a new new way of bootstrapping it yeah yeah yeah okay sorry it took me a while to recognize this so a long time ago again here we are talking about the passage a long time ago there was a whole discussion about why if markets are efficient do corporations have command and control hierarchies inside of them rather than

[1:15:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=4538s) internal markets right right trust trust lots of reasons right and i think i want to say amazon has quite a robust culture internally with internal markets but what i'm recognizing is that what you're building here is something which attempts to solve the same class of problems the corporations solve but you're solving it using internal markets rather than solving it using hierarchy and commander control roughly so it's kind of like a corporation but it's a corporation where you can recruit resources to your project by issuing tokens to the people that are working on the project from the pool of people that are inside of the single corporate hall which is metagame and i think like these were a major separation so the metagame is not the organization itself so i mean it's impressive that uh we are metapham and this is metagame so like at some point in the future like in phase two we will be just one of many organizations that are building and maintaining the metagame so we're not we're not it and yeah the other than players and patrons like the other main component are the deals which are basically just groups of people that can have a it will be like a development agency or a project although we're mostly trying to aim for the projects i guess because they're trying to integrate as many of the existing infrastructure to build this whole like puzzle of the world you might want to take a look at thing called matrix management i think that will help you figure out the relationship between the guilds and the development agencies and it was a big fad in corporate governance way back in the day and basic idea was you'd have like if you think of like a hospital you would have a management system for doctors and you'd have a management system for administrators and you would have a management system for buildings and then when you wanted to do something like create a new department you would have a relationship between the new department which would be like a project on the doctor agency on the administrator agency on the building agency and you bring resources from all those things together into your new building matrix management there's an infinite amount of crap written about it so this is really good i mean this is matured astonishingly from where it was the last time we talked about it i mean like you know i mean obviously you're still figuring out how to articulate the ideas because things this complexity i mean

[1:18:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGyd4vEg8s&t=4688s) like it's hard right articulating things is complex is hard because you have to make it's all about analogies right the model is clear inside of your head but communicating it requires making analogies things that other people know and you need different analogies for different audiences you know i think you've done really really good work here in terms of identifying this notion that you have a thing which is kind of like a social operating system some materials on the site about values ways of relating to other people methodology you know like there's all of this layer then there's an economics layer then there's an activities layer and it's like you know values economic incentives and activities similar problem solving capacity to a conventional corporation but run very strongly on internal markets and a different set of protocols because we're not allocating resources by having a single centralized budget and a single tax accountant we're allocating value inside of a system where people can create and mint their tokens pretty much dynamically to solve problems kind of sort yeah it's great it's really really impressive good work yeah so i think that's like one of the main selling points is that other than like what we do differently than all the other tokens which they sell the tokens then they use the money to pay people to do the work so they just selling the promise of future work what we are doing is like the tokens are only created for existing work so for previous work so there is no tokens being sold for like future work it's all password so that's kind of solves the problem of uh like will they deliver takes a huge amount of risk out of it also probably has the nice side effect that there's a decent chance that the tokens are not securities that's good i wanted to touch on the when i first started like in the very beginning i was saying okay it's like uh like twitter meets linkedin meet the world of warcraft then i was just explaining it as a like a real real-life mmorpg and that was still like i came up with the concept of a massive online coordination being like fairly soon but i wasn't really using it because i thought like people won't be able to relate and i'm still not sure that they do but i started uh using it more comparisons to the existing stuff i just call it a massive online coordination

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