# Ian Grigg (Chamapesa) and Vinay Gupta (Mattereum) on dispute resolution (part 1 of 2)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [635], part 1 of 2. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2018-03-30 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Dispute resolution fitted to community savings groups, the kind of finance a camp economy already runs on.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - The Future We Deserve: "Facebook for the Five Billion?" (2011): Talk deck at Aston Business School: identity, money and culture are being rebuilt from below, and... (suggested by machine)
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - The Future of Stuff (2020): Book on the philosophy under Mattereum: risk and morality in deals about physical things. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - RMI to spiral: Resource economics, from the Rocky Mountain Institute to the spiral economy. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - environment / green capitalism: Green economics: from oil efficiency to markets for facts about products. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Crypto compliance & money laundering (12%); Smart contracts, arbitration & dispute resolution — the legal layer (12%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: microfinance (4 here; 7 sources in all, earliest dated 2006, 1 undated); M-PESA (2 here; 3 sources in all, earliest dated 2011); skin in the game (3 here; 10 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); dispute resolution (6 here; 48 sources in all, earliest dated 2013); identity insurance (1 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); Identity Insurance Consortium (1 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); trust structure (1 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); SIP (1 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2016); PGP (1 here; 16 sources in all, earliest dated 2011); contracts (6 here; 147 sources in all, earliest dated 2006, 3 undated)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): identity insurance; Identity Insurance Consortium
- Importance: core-text score 0.27 (1.00 is the top), number 284 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [780] [Vinay Gupta and Ian Grigg Speak On Arbitration and... (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/780.md): close in content (cosine 0.98)
  - [678] [WNWB S01E08: Mattereum with Vinay Gupta (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/678.md): close in content (cosine 0.95)
- On the same works, just before: [706] [Blockchain Beyond Bitcoin - with Vinay Gupta | Virtual... (2018)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/706.md); [851] [Global governance in the era of blockchain. (2018)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/851.md); [713] [Vinay Gupta on identity, starting a fund, internet court... (2018)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/713.md)
- On the same works, just after: [633] [Mattereum panel at the Internet of Agreements conference (2018)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/633.md); [729] [Blockchaingers Hackathon 2018 - Interview with Vinay... (2018)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/729.md); [632] Law and Global Trade in the Era of Blockchain (2018)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Ian Grigg (Chamapesa) and Vinay Gupta (Mattereum) on dispute resolution, video, 2018-03-30, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [635], https://guptaoption.com/texts/635.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 1 of 2
[0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=0s) and so material trauma Pisa on dispute resolution hmm very interesting Nexus yes yes so I probably ought to give the nickel summary of what Mattereum does which is and people come to us and say hey we've got this property right that we won't move around using a block check and we say hmm we've look at the process logic do we construct legal contracts which express the thing they want to do and then we take part of the your contract or render it as a smart contract and obviously you were taking your trance is trying to enforce on the core us so then it binds to us have arbitrators and that's the complete Ricardian system and the entire thing is based very consciously on a craft mode of production rather than attempting premature automation mmm yes that's what we do very very skilled very very manual and the hope is that that process produces a bunch of large scale template contracts that are used for like 25 blockchain companies all for to do transfer of physical goods they might as well use the same under one contract in the model for example is des where everybody in the derivatives industry uses the same contract so you can have ability bolts or organization technical costs yeah so you can one with the child pacer thing our model district resolution is radically too expensive for that yes indeed because we're there to be the kind of top-level you know oh my god it's screwed up and there are millions of dollars at risk to commenters right yeah I would well engineer for that but we are not well engineer for the small stuff and you're doing with tens of thousands of dollars max how you doing yes it's interesting I think before I say that maybe there's a thought in my mind I think what's happening here is that if you look at say the blockchain industry the cyber punks and the financial cryptographers yeah we've come along and we've said well we can we can invent this concept called contracts we can digitize contracts whether we do it Ricardian or smart or hybrid and ooh yeah no particular issue we do this thing what we've then got is a set of shall we say very strong assets we don't have is any way to deal with it when the machine breaks down yeah absolutely yeah and Trent McCulloch he is a nice phrase for this week's is the happy path is pure digital none of the

[2:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=150s) unhappy path is manual propagated whose pure manual yes that's right whereas when we get to Africa and Kenya and so forth these kind of the reverse they do actually have their ways to sort this problem out in the sense that they work within very small groups and so forth but their ability to digitize or even capture the asset in any sense is very poor oh that's interesting in the sense that basically they're working with paper books they oh the paper books are only valuable within the context of a trauma you can't take the paper book to a bank and get a mortgage because the bank will look at that and say what is this Mickey Mouse thing bringing Joss okay oh that's interesting so the traumas social structure anchors the record yes yes and so it's basically it's it's not really was running on sovereign Authority it's running off basically community authority that's right they create the community within the Chama and that is what gives ahora G to the paperwork oh this is fascinating know one of the things I'm doing is working with a guy called Don Bates on a thing called impact PPA mm-hmm dance thing is basically blockchain base municipal services so what they're doing is power right windmills solar panels batteries and a micro grid in a kind of hub-and-spoke configuration okay um you the sort of analysis is is basically most of the early work on blockchain was competing with state services they wanted to issue currency which is a nation state level yes and a huge vote in the previous generation of water a mindset is focused on this idea that you're providing the same services as the state yes the mindset if you like my set right there the concept of operations yes so then if you refocus on the municipal level it all actually makes a ton more sense because municipal ISM is basically about how do you pay for wheels stuff yes and the scope is way more contained and it's much easier to see the cause and effect relationships right and you'll say local competition in the union siege of counties next to each other you see normally under the same system but one is doing much better than the other yeah at salary the trauma thing right you have as a community level mandate to the blockchain yes rather than a sort of sovereign level mandate to the watching yes it's a march were legally contained intelligible use of the technology rather than this hand if like we're going to issue a new global currency with the Central Bank of the internet thing which is the bingling mindset yeah you have a very small

[5:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=300s) feedback loop so when it goes wrong you stop yeah whereas if you're talking about the state level thing when it goes wrong you double down and these rules and rules with little rolls and rolls and rolls until they're all broken yes difficult your hundred K Bitcoin this year so coming back to China pests are on the way that they do dispute resolution they have they have certainly they have the same problem that everybody else in Africa or Latin America has or some parts of Asia but the courts are both unreliable at the macro scale at the large scale dispute resolution process because they are corruptible if you like the frequent complaints that the the court case goes to the one who pays the biggest bribe now whether that's true and who can say but without trying it's but not to the fury but that that's the perception and the other thing is that they're totally inaccessible to people on $2 a day you do not get to resolve a dispute if you're not a relatively well-off person because you can't afford to talk to a lawyer right and you can't afford to even necessarily make the trip to the courthouse or file of those brief you know which we just can't get into the system you aren't it's completely shut out for you so the the locals have a very strong sense of community and they also have if not in practice but certainly within their minds or their their memories the notion of tribal elders mmm consequently there's always somebody you can go to if you need to resolve a dispute there's always a sense that we could do this so we could do that etc etc so the channel is basically constituted on the sort of communities cooperative agreement and then that comes with a shared model of district resolution so that's coming baked into the social tier and they're already using that on paper yes but it's not explicit it's the sense there is that when we started talking about arbitration and dispute resolution is a formal process they all automatically understood it but they hadn't experienced it in such a formal fashion before ah so those things are things just are sort of getting hashed out um in the sense that they worry about the

[7:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=450s) disputes when they happen and they don't have this shall we say contractual sense where in your contract do you write applause that refers dispute resolution to a particular forum right which is what we in the West do customarily they would not do that because in a sense they don't have a forum where they can take their disputes so they don't bother to imagine it upfront right however if you come to them with a forum that works they're quite happy to adopt it because they know the existing forum isn't for them right so we found it was actually extraordinarily easy in comparison to the West selling Western communities on arbitration yeah is a hard one it was really a difficult access to the court already yes and they think their courts will protect them yeah and they think that their courts will look after them yeah now that can't possibly be true because when you go to court one party has to lose and one party has to win right so somebody's not going to be protected yes cursory talks about this that upfront everybody wants the most severe possible sanction yes they never imagined they'll be the one in default that's right yes exactly so there's this very big perception that our courts are good and especially if you go to the larger the country gets the more the belief in their own legal system sure so explaining how to do dispute resolution at a community level is very hard in the West yeah it's a hard in a sense that was a system that we kind of migrated away from hundreds of years ago yes I'm thinking of like the old days I don't know whether this is true or not but um where the jury was the first 12 min that came out of church that morning hmm something like that yes yes so there's all these practices that we've gradually got away from and if you go back into the old days the court was for example a franchise mm somebody owns the franchise yeah the executioner was a franchise and somebody owned the job of executing that was their income yeah so we got away from that system we went to a more spate oriented model because that was thought to be more independent and standards could improve which it doesn't in many respects you know in many places it's relatively uniform justice yes it might have the same you know it might it has roughly the same area all tiers yes not that the small-claims stuff is junk and the high-level stuff is pretty good right to a fair degree you've got about the same error rate regardless of the size of case yes it's an achievement but

[10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=600s) it doesn't help you okay doesn't help us in Kenya so in Kenya we found a relatively easy cell to put in place an arbitration framework now the trick that is probably the thing that will be immediately striking the Western mind is happening possibly afford arbitration the answer is you use them to provide the arbitrator's right you get the communities themselves to provide an arbitrator right right and we simply when we did it in practice we had we simply chose the president of the channel huh to be one out of trader and I was chosen to be the other arbitrator so they gave us two arbitrators in a camera 30 people yeah now the next thing is of course that if you do get into a some sort of violent debate about funds have been stolen or whatever our Chairman might not be able to adjudicate that right so we can go to the next chart and pull the arbitrator from there's no independent to listen to the sides and come up with the determination and you could go as far out across our social graph as you need to tell you that somebody that everybody agrees is independent yes yes and so that's where we're sort of aiming for in the future we're not were obviously not there by any stretch of the imagination but the job part of being in the community is that you have to provide if you like jury service but in this case arbitral service so that at some stage you might think you know I'm happily doing my stuff but suddenly you get called upon right - right via now everything's I've been gone wrong yes yes and and that's what being part of a community is you have to support the community when it gets into trouble right right and this is part of the responsibility that people take on in the initial contractual arrangement so in a sense the process here is well so in the in the standard context the fit process is that you have a business process represented by a legal contract and then you fit the software to legal contract basically if you like in this instance there's the business process is not implemented as a Queen set of business Roderick it's a community process that has a whole bunch of underlying social capital concerns yes so you kind of have an underlying community structure to which the business processes for it and then the contract is fit to that

[12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=750s) business process on the underlying community structure yes in the sense that the contract is coming last yeah and is capturing and more and getting more refined about it this notion of what it is that's happening right because it's binding to an already living system yes it's a critical thing that in a Western business context there is generally speaking no underlying living system that is transacting before the contract or a place generally speaking people might agree that there's going to be a deal but stuff doesn't are happening until the paperwork is done and our lawyers generally in four pretty strictly yes if you're in that frame of mind there is nothing yes so the sub notion then is the software is fitted to the paperwork and the paperwork is fitted to the business process yes but none of it really interacts with any kind of fundamental social structure no so you what we have is a much longer bridge between the cryptography and the thing yes because the thing is even one or two more steps less mechanistic than contract law yes yeah do micro challenges that is one of the two key things which is now emerging you know something we've worked out back up 2000 or so to make this work to make it work properly you have to start from the community aspect or more precisely you have to start from the communication aspect so the starting point for building this process is not digital cache it's actually digital chat in the sense that you want to build your community around messaging right right we message back and forth then you just think are we going to organise next week's channel meeting what is that it's a series of messages going back and on top of that you build your digital cache system or you do assets is that right okay so this is quite sort of thinking inside of status economic space agency lots of folks are coming to this convergence idea that the money passes along a conversational Channel yes exactly well everybody's doing it now but the idea has been around for a long time I first wrote about it in 2000 or so Wow but I actually figured it out in you know 2000 and you you might remember that Skype was sold to eBay this is the traditional mean great 50 year Wow generation ago I don't do exactly how they ought to be done 15 years of pain

[15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=900s) yes so spike was sold to eBay for that cups Oh eBay we're having trouble with their paper so they thought why don't we put it into a cryptographically secure framework yeah I remember Skype in the mid-2000s was the word insecurity absolute now if you take Skype and you take the messaging well you've got secure delivery secure and reliable delivery of messaging how hard is it to stick a cache in that that's what they wanted to do but but they didn't that's it's another story yes which leaves this enormous wide open space yes yes so we have the governance in the forum of the community points of district resolution agent in that environment yes you've got the chat logs which tells people what was promised than what was said and who was gonna do all exactly right and all of this has got soda least some solid cryptographic backing to it and there's no it it's chained in there yeah okay that I mean this all seems like it's circling around something which is of course identity how do we know who's who inside of the system yes well it turns out that one's a soul issue it is oh yes for numbers the community knows everybody okay when you form a tremor yeah it's all we only form it with people you know very well right because the SE is on the table in my trust environment that's right exactly so the community has identity already wrapped up right the only thing they've got to do is record it in some fashion now it turns out to be pretty reveal in in Kenya the rule is you have to have sufficient details of the Kenya ID so if there's a government-issued ID you're done okay because it's because the trauma is a very light scale thing we're not talking kyc and IML or anything like that this is just a Savings Club yeah so we don't actually need to do very much right right so they have this very lightweight rule but but actually you can go a lot further because of course you can't take the Kenya ID or the passport or whatever I mean you can't just distribute it willy-nilly outside the channel but what you can do is capture information about who is there and you can make a summary record if you like the camera itself can become an authority you somehow have almost like voting inside of the charm on who's who well I

[17:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=1050s) didn't quite understand yeah so so of course the problem or the desire that certainly in the West people have about identity is that they want to go to some institution like a government or a corporation run or you know an uber driver or something like that and present something that suddenly makes it all good yeah yeah absolutely this notion that you have a hard identity credential you're buying your passport table and there are no further questions or who you are the default or the knee-jerk answer to that is you bang your passport on the table and now everything is hunky-dory yeah but actually that doesn't really measure up in terms of risk analysis because if I put down a passport from one country and you're from another country yes now what happens if we break a deal for you know a thousand dollars or something like that are you going to pursue me to another company absolutely it doesn't work you're outside the record level yeah and in fact even if you think about the the process in the local community a court case at the local magistrates courts is going to cost you a thousand so see what's happening is that the the identity document has become an expectation right but it's not actually delivering the trust or of course that you want cuz you think it's a promise of enforcement and it's actually not even if we know who this guy is we're a little bit anything and you can take it to the extreme so if you talk about say the Germans or the Swiss or something like that my name is my bond if you presented your name and a passport that's it they will act very well hmm but if you go to South America or places in India and so forth and you get somebody's name is there gonna be much use to you probably not especially if they you know they spot you as a foreigner sure so so the issue is not the identity the issue is how do I get recourse for something going wrong right now coming back to the chance we all know who everybody is in the channel if I can present to you a fairly good indication that I come from a particular Chama and that tremor is in the network okay so the trauma is the main space yes you are bulb of truck Chama hey guys this is helen of farm Shama yes is Fredd of weaving charm are aware if they are yes and you have this namespace so the

[20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=1200s) people are connected which is probably exactly what they did in the villages Bob Smith is Bob the smithy yeah you know and Bob from that particular village that's how it was done in the old day so if I come to you and I give you credible evidence mm-hmm phones crypto and so forth the I'm of a particular Channel right and you know that Chalmers in the network yeah good you now know that you can go for it course and this is kind of community level DNS yes and you don't need to know my name only the child has a bunch of assets exactly skin in the game so somebody comes and represents themselves as being from a particular trauma the trauma has authorized them to use that credential they go to another Sharma to rent a truck by truckwest they're doing do some training missions it's done something goes wrong and you go to the trombones hey this person that you warranted yeah this person has gone with my truck yes in an alley proceed and now we've got people we've got assets we've got evidence exceptions and so you begin to build accountability the movie if somebody doesn't all of the warrants yes black mark against Chama as a whole which inputs durability trade yes and we did all that without your identity yep you know a Matthew shoot heed of Halle trade so he is a big big big advocate for he caused discretion or reinforcement this is basically two ways that you could punish people who misbehave first is to go around and take their stuff the other is do not give them more stuff for future yes action the last option the future who tries to refuse to trade yes that in itself is sanction if it's a comprehensive yes and he's got this whole kind of model that this stuff worked inside of the small village level but it doesn't scale because we don't have right machinery he thinks whole train it's not machinery yes I have my doubts the whole traders of machinery bit his analysis is very strong right and a whole lot of stuff actually does work inside the village and then stops working outside the village logic number number exactly exactly and that's kind of that's why cameras are that number because they're limited by downline and this is the universal thing right in formal systems of enforcement yes you're always gonna hit this hard one which is how much space do you have to remember who's in your good books and who's in your bad books that's right yes but if we can do that that the trauma level if I can be part of a charm huh and that Chalmers good word has now put a twist right now I start to behave because it's my channel right the amount of skin in

[22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=1350s) the game that I have when I represent my trauma when I represent myself as coming from my chapter right this is very hot under wedged between the people you're doing business with and the people that you're representing now the only way that theoretically causes three deals yes so really the hope here is you basically engineer a transition from a low trust society to a high trust society using crypto yes which we presumably what double the economic efficiency of an economy or something crazy it would add percentage points to the economy just like m-pesa did yeah m-pesa did that because it was a lot it is enabled one leg of the trade the trade to move reliably and seamlessly from person to person before before impair so what would happen is you could take a an envelope mystic passionate handed to a driver of a to drive that Matata would drive half an hour or an hour or even 10 L sometimes get to the other end hand the envelope to a cook talk a little bike got me yeah and he would take it the next week to the supplier harness by post cash pipettes well cash no cash by informal Network informed transport network not even by post so it was unreliable and you can imagine the the arguments that would happen when it disappeared or didn't get there now the only reason it worked it turns out so so we're told you know I hope they correct us on this but the only reason it worked was because that the my tattoos are owned by channels oh they're you and the Matata driver was now representing the chairman in carrying the envelope so that shows but always being yes is the fundamental trust struck yes so taking existing social structures yes reinforcing the existing local social structures with crypto yes so that the internal credentials can be used externally yes Wow that's the solution so let me run over that again because that's very complex and you think yes I think a lot of people watching this will just be like water do you say yeah so informal trust structures about a 30 person scale mm-hmm which are already handling funds on behalf of their members mm-hmm so in a sense they are like a regulated financial body would be here but they've been warranted by their community rather than be warranted by their state yes yes so you've you have assistive financial agency this person is a financial agent of this other 30 people yes they misbehave we will be

[25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=1500s) righteously or not yes then that structure traditionally not that functional because if you don't know those people already you don't know whether you know fred is actually from that trauma or not because the childhood does the hon easy way of extended credentials exactly so you are a digital credentialing system which takes the pre-existing trust structures and makes it easy to extend the trust in a geographical sense yes so that then enables it enables commerce in the sense that you can now safely deal with a trauma on the other side of the countries so you without having met them that will Riccardi an advantage you've been trade with people that are less like you which answers you've got more advantage from trade yes you've got tons and tons of tons of rice they've got tons tons of wheat because at the other end of the country whereas all your neighbors are also growing rice that's right so further away the further people are across the social graph the more likely commercially useful yes a heart risk perform yes exactly and the interesting thing is that everything we're building is is improving everybody's life so it's not taking away from anybody that's right let's come here is similar in horizon to things like microfinance but without the injection of capital so it's kind of solving the same problems and microfinance was supposed to solve but microfinance has been a bit of a mixed bag because it turns out the credit is dangerous yes well it turns out that if you go there as the rich white capital provider inject in rich white capital models yeah they don't work yes if you try flatten the local people into your way of thinking on paper it worked you know sitting in Boston or Silicon Valley it worked on the book but they don't go there and they look at you and say well actually I'm just going to take the money so the big problem that happened with microfinance was it slid into loan sharking yes absolutely absolutely and the reason for that was because once you've got too many people involved somebody it was gonna rise up and start abusing the system because they were bringing in a system which was constructed along Western approximately reliable lines and now we're moving into Africa where the reliability bar slips down yeah the trust I gotta say the sisters don't scale back it's not that surprising right if you take any system

[27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=1650s) and you you know multiply the error rate moffat Ratan yes it will fall apart it will fall apart at our systems which can function to the error rate the view will be different from you know make differently constructed that's right an example this is what happens if you take London cell business practices to join them in Switzerland right right similarly you take London cell business from practices and try them in Italy mm-hmm I need to feel we're in either direction yes right that's right the Swiss have this assumption that the thing is done when it's done The Wanderers have this assumption that things done went to 89% done in yeah something without gonna figure out the details yes the Italians are like we met we had dinner like each other it's uh yeah and got that question when is the deal done by ASAP yeah the Dutch have a super complicated we've decided when things are done super complicated almost incomprehensibly complicated by London standards hmm breach which is why the Dutch can do seven party deals there we specialize in large multi party deal making where's the Wonder approach is like two people a time maybe three in a pinch yes and though all of those conceptual models appalling looks like when the thing is done right are tied to different social walls of trust yes so when you take your social model and you go to somewhere like Africa yeah you can't conceive of what's going on yeah so you don't see yeah you're blinded to it yeah I would go absolutely and all this cultural stuff is invisible yeah I picked up a bit from having parents from different species racist yes kind of bridging of worlds yes you know the constant confusion inside of my family unit about the meaning of even simple words you know was not because both parties didn't understand English perfectly but because there's a little concepts from backing up on two completely different frameworks yes like obligation anxiety promise yes these are words which in the Western context been one thing in an Indian context they bind onto a totally different semantic structure right it's almost impossible to communicate across those barriers and you know a word like ooh you know how strong a word is that if you're in Switzerland that's a very different word from in Ireland it's all in English yes you know the underlying cultural constructs are so different mm-hmm so you're basically taking a bunch of crypto and wrapping it around a cultural construct yes that you think is a better fit for crypto than one separate here well I think so because the thing that struck me mmm was the a there are many many channels

[30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=1800s) and that's fantastic that's lots of fun I literally like there must be hundreds there's a there's 300,000 that are registered below that there's another three times that which are unregistered which are basically you know hobby clubs we call them lunch hobbies hobby groups um so you're talking about a million and therefore were you talking about a million assets mm-hmm which means a million Ricardian contracts now you try and do that with the LC 20 know that you can do with a properly constructed Ricardian system yes because of the nature of the hashing of the parameterization and the software which can easily deal with that yes because in this instance right you are doing the blockchain thing of having many many many copies yes here at the manias thirtysomething yes rather farm you know for 400 thousand then it's a global system it's 30 something that it's a local system and the value at risk is compartmentalized that's right yes in terms in terms of where does all break down you've got a channel which is very cohesive unit know that in there has one recurring contract which is managed by the sovereign and the the balance here between the social structure and the technical structure is completely different from the Bitcoin ideology the vet color ideology is more or less you know 80 90 % tech 10% will you accept Bitcoin for a payment yes varies in this system almost all of the heavy infrastructure is be already existing social practice that's right and it's basically like adding a telephone or or you know Ronnie yeah you're just adding enough crypto that the existing social structure becomes more effective yes all we're really doing at some level is replacing their paper books and as long as everything else that they do is the same they it should work it should be as well as it works though but as well as it works now that one percent of their GDP there is there is something really interesting here so the I'm gonna try to tease this out so the typical way that people design crypto is that they generally speaking start with a clearly defined business process mmm running on the sort of standard rules of Western business yes that's right as close as they can get it yes I mean and then within that structure that are a set of you know algorithms that are used to represent different parts of those processes so we think of digital signatures as being identical to income paper and we try as far as possible to use them that way that's

[32:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=1950s) right yes but the digital signature is not like wet ink on paper it's got a different set of properties it's amazingly different it's crazy that people would even think of doing that you see right yeah so then in this Chama context you take a different social structure yes and then you fit the cryptography to that social structure and at that point the digital signature is not being interpreted as the equivalent to wet ink on paper the digital signature is now equivalent to meeting somebody in a cafe and having them personally recommend somebody to you yes some yes so same technical artifact different representation of what the signature indicates different indication of what the ledger indicates it's it's it's it's literally indigenized in the technology yes yes well now it's starting to get you know we're starting to get a bit deeper mm-hmm one of the things that we've been doing and this goes back to what see a certain we're doing and that goes back to what he was doing the old PGP we're trusting that didn't really work out in a forever at all and one of the reasons was that the the signature over somebody's key executives Indre didn't carry any meaning and there was no standardization so different schools thought it would meant one thing and other people thought it meant another thing and these things did not mesh because there was no semantics there was no semantics a bit I mean do we do we just a very you know clarify what that means literally you just have you know an email address yes with a digital signature that's right and there was no sense you could add any additional information to that transactions these people what you meant when you sang it yes that's what it was it was a completely naked artifact around which social structures came this is by the ways why I loved spki mm-hm because the SPK I had a rich semantics for talking about what the signatures meant yes nobody abused it but nobody to use it yes so now PKI comes along and creates this semantic structure called a CPS and so forth and so on which gives you a sense of where to go now they didn't solve it and the reason they didn't solve it was because they mocked up the liability the series never took on the liabilities so therefore you got this race to the bottom in terms of quality and again we've got specified what this is so we're talking about the things from which you buy your HTTPS certificate yes which gives you the public on your website mm-hmm so the process is you take a bunch of money you take report documents you go and see it an entity called a certificate authority and the check your documents and then they give you the certificate but because you're

[35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=2100s) paying them they're incentivized to give you the certificate rather than the check the document through me carefully and figure out the URIs camera and this results in things like a fake certificate being issued from Microsoft com yes and many many other examples difficulties so the system didn't deliver enough value to be useful for people now see a sip comes along and tries to do it properly so sets up a Shiro's all the way around the world we had something like six thousand servers yeah but we have to answer that question what happens when it goes wrong pays the cost of what happens when it goes wrong now the liability one is the liability question and the CA is avoided that because what they basically said was you you suffer you pay for it when it goes wrong we're out of it we have these contracts protecting us yeah but because Co cert was a community it wasn't possible for us to say you pay it because you is us mm-hmm we can't dot the liability on ourselves it doesn't work we had to find an answer and the answer was arbitration mm-hmm in that we added the clause in and everybody came in under arbitration and if a certificate were to ever fail we had this mechanism by which we say file a dispute right and the arbitrator will tell us what to do yeah case by case yes so we've got the answer that's how you so about the liability question but serious it was too narrowly focused what it was trying to do was this whole see anything that didn't quite work out but what it did do and the funny thing was we nobody expected this when arbitration went into place a lot of the people in the community started to behave a lot more maturely hmm used to have this normal internet geekery thing going on yeah and what happened then was that there would be arguments yes on the net like there are on Twitter yeah when the arbitration process came in people backed off from that and stopped being nasty to each other yes and they started to be more professional about the work they did more careful so we discovered that is this because having an actual sanction in the system and that people were no longer jockeying for position so hard it meant that people had consequences they had skin in the game it meant that but if they got out of line mm-hmm previously there were no consequences you could go out there and slander somebody and call them some terrible name matter but you had a

[37:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCBsQM7O8W0&t=2250s) dispute mechanism so if somebody did something which was outrageous then you could be called to account and just you might get away with it right but the fact that you have to stand up in front of an arbitrator and say when I called this guy a completely not a yes I didn't really mean it I was you know speaking rhetorical right but you have to say that so people got a lot more mature baths and that allowed the whole nation Internet use a choice of are exactly that will have the whole organization to lift its game to the next level of professionalism but the other thing that happened was we pretty much nailed down what the nature of the certificate was and the nature of the certificate and this is where it would come back to the channels the certificate basically said not who you were yes it said that but that wasn't the important part okay what it said was this person is a member of the CA Serb community and therefore you have recourse suea huh CA sir changed the semantics of the HTTP certificate yes to use it not just as an indicator hard identity but as an indicator that there was an account chain of accountability at how exactly yes I never understood and that was the secret and that lifted us as a community up to the next level of professionals yeah now we go and apply that technique to the Chalmers in Africa they have that trust structure right there right what they have what they have difficulty in is the ability to export that to anyway useful serve that you see this this is the whole intellectual history thing this is Wednesday these conversations is so important yes so the realization you had CSR was that you were binding the accountability to the identity so the identity is yes in the sense that the CI job was to put something into a certificate yeah and people were saying you should put the identity in there and we kind of drifted away and said no no no we put the accountability of yes and that's the part we keep relying yeah ABB's yes so similar will you come to the trauma context the identities of the important thing the important thing is the accountability the certificates we used indicate different things yes yes this this is very very much the same kind of approach we're taking with the identity insurance consortium it's similar in the sense that yes that's what you have to concentrate on the accountability not the name yeah yeah

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Continues in https://guptaoption.com/texts/635-2.md (part 2 of 2).
End of [635] Ian Grigg (Chamapesa) and Vinay Gupta (Mattereum) on dispute resolution, part 1 of 2. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.