# Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022 (part 1 of 4)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [594], part 1 of 4. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2022-08-12 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Practical working of the contracting layer for real assets.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - IG Wines with Mattereum (2022): Mattereum partnership with IG Wines to create digital tokens for high-value wine and whisky.
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
  - The Future of Stuff (2020): Book on the philosophy under Mattereum: risk and morality in deals about physical things. (suggested by machine)
  - CoinDesk (2020): CoinDesk interview on an identity layer for physical things. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017.
  - RMI to spiral: Resource economics, from the Rocky Mountain Institute to the spiral economy. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - environment / green capitalism: Green economics: from oil efficiency to markets for facts about products. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (48%); Smart contracts, law & arbitration (17%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: NFT (31 here; 45 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); real estate (56 here; 106 sources in all, earliest dated 2013, 2 undated); real world assets (15 here; 24 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); physical asset NFTs (3 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); metaverse (4 here; 7 sources in all, earliest dated 2021); oracles (4 here; 10 sources in all, earliest dated 2016); land registry (3 here; 6 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); collectibles (6 here; 27 sources in all, earliest dated 2014); Mattereum (20 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); tokenization (6 here; 39 sources in all, earliest dated 2014)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): physical asset NFT; physical asset NFTs; condition report
- Importance: core-text score 0.34 (1.00 is the top), number 200 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [199] [IG Wines with Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/199.md): same career work: IG Wines with Mattereum
  - [722] ["10 Years of Ethereum... Tokenization is here." ---- RWA... (2025)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/722.md): close in content (cosine 0.90)
- On the same works, just before: [735] [Vinay Gupta - Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/735.md); [199] [IG Wines with Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/199.md); [800] [Lecture by Vinay Gupta at the opening event of Data in... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/800.md)
- On the same works, just after: [575] ['How Top Create RWAnfts for artwork in galleries, and... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/575.md); [576] ['12 Percent US Inflation The Flight in to Hard, Real... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/576.md); [577] [‘Mattereum, Digital Gold and Not So Stable Coins’ (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/577.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022, video, 2022-08-12, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [594], https://guptaoption.com/texts/594.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 1 of 4
[0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=0s) so dear friends my name is anton i work at Mattereum and uh we're very happy uh to see so many uh of uh you here today uh real world assets are arriving on the blockchain Mattereum has existed for nearly five years and we've been working in the space for a number of years and more and more companies and individuals are coming into the space so today it's great to have our first physical asset nft meet-up and to celebrate physical asset nfts and to hear from folks who are working in the space about what's new and what's exciting and we hope to cover a number of uh topics so obviously we're going to discuss hard assets on chain and bridging the gap between the physical and the digital worlds we hope to discuss vaulting physical nfts for global brands uh we'll discuss collateralizing crypto uh lending with alternative investment assets and we will discuss how nfts with illegal contracts can stop uh counterfeiting so welcome everybody um uh a couple of uh bits of information um so there is a google sheet uh for net for the purpose of networking which uh we're going to flash up uh in the chat so if folks want uh to share their details to be able to connect with one another uh to be able to get in touch after the event uh please do uh add your details to that so that uh so that people are able to contact each other um there is also a link on the uh google sheet with a sign up uh with the possibility to sign up to materials newsletter um so we've got a number of uh it's going to be a very informal event but we've got a number of uh items that we'd like to get through um we'll have a fireside chat between teach from maker dao and vinay gupta who is the founder and ceo of Mattereum there'll be a few short panels looking at some of the

[2:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=150s) exciting asset classes and sub asset classes where like where live work is happening right now uh and there will also be an opportunity to ask questions and then on a separate zoom link there will be a kind of after party which will be a much more uh pub kind of vibe and an opportunity for people to get a drink and to to to mingle and to to network uh much much less formally we also have uh a pope proof of attendance uh token which will be made available to the first 50 um attendees um which is uh uh yeah we've got we've got we already have more than 50 folks so it'll be it'll be available to the first 50 attendees um now the question that i have before we move into the next session is uh do we have a teach from uh maker dao here or not yet uh do we have teach no no look like he's here yet i've just sent him a reminder i did talk to him in the last hour so i'm expecting him to be here okay well he's stuck as an attendee yeah let's have a quick chat dom can you see can you see tj anywhere no i don't okay so here's he is an fnd well um in that case um perhaps so we've got a number of people working who are working in the space uh covering a number of asset classes i think there is a there is a there is a lot to discuss so perhaps we can move into one of our panels first um and i'm wondering uh which was so glad we've got a panel uh on wine and and and whiskey uh we have a panel on real estate and we have a panel on fine art and collectibles we were going to start with the fireside chat uh but i am wondering whether we should start with one of the panels vinay do you think we should maybe start with the real estate panel because i can see the participants of that panel who are already here or maybe we could start with the wine panel because i can see everybody is here already yeah if we have a full panel for wine why don't we

[5:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=300s) start with wine all right so i think i can see all of the attendees here for the wine panel which is uh great news so uh without further ado let us launch into that and we've got uh dave garrett of club dvn and we've got uh i think we've got thomas williams or with do we have thomas do we have thomas yes no i can't see him yeah it might be in the attend let me check the participants uh perhaps not no uh and we do have um uh we do have uh adam uh kahara uh money uh sorry if sorry if i got your name wrong adam uh from hello fam uh so since we don't have thomas yet uh should we start the panel anyway and thomas can join or should we wait for a moment i think let's i think let's start and thomas can thomas can join um all right in that case so first of all uh i would like uh all of our wine uh panelists oh yes and we we've got we've got uh uh captain uh keshavala from uh Mattereum who has been uh working uh with a wine with a wine merchant from the material man so perhaps we could ask everybody who is on the panel to just spend one minute or so introducing themselves and talking about uh their work and talking about their project and then we could take a few short factual questions from the audience and then move on to the next panel and it'll be the opportunity for a wider q and a for all participants a little bit later on uh so uh who would like to start uh adam maybe you could start by saying a few words about uh your work and introducing yourself yeah thank you anton thank you all so much for having me here uh my name is adam garamani you're close to my family caromani okay thank you sorry about that um nobody can pronounce my name either i co-founded two projects the first is untamed elephant which was the first ever charity nft project

[7:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=450s) over 12 months ago and the second which is why i'm here is called hello fam which was the first nft wine brand uh also launched a year ago it's coming up to our one year birthday um so hellofam is a joint production between us and a company called vincent which helps a hundred wineries sell direct to consumer we issue nfts where the wine is stored somewhere else you could buy sell trade the nfts and it represents physical wine stored in a temperature-controlled bonded facility so that's me great thank you david could you introduce uh yourself and say a little bit about your work please sure uh i'm dave garrett um the co-founder of uh club duven um and let me just start by saying we're uh we were adam and hello fam was a huge inspiration for us uh i remember watching you go live um i know gil and and jacob pretty well so uh congratulations on being the first out there with the with the wine project it was really really fascinating to see um we uh we focus on a different part of the um of the wine uh i guess life cycle we're much more interested in after the wine leaves the bonded warehouse um we keep track of chain of custody and then we actually have a kind of an interesting thing where we we want to incentivize people to let us know when they've opened the bottle so we've created a um not just a an nft that that goes along with the bottle until it's opened but then the ability for when they open the bottle for people to be new nfts that are kind of like co-apps uh what we call tasting token nfts which are an authentic proof of experience for people that have tasted the wine that's fascinating uh thank you and we've got uh now uh thomas on the panel uh thomas we've started with the conversation uh about wine and spirits so may i please ask you to just spend a minute introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about your work yeah definitely thanks for thanks for having me today um sorry just fixing this thanks for having me today so i work at with technology

[10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=600s) i work there as one of the product development leads and uh data analysts so a few different roles it's startup so essentially what we are trying to do is really take um wine as an investment asset to another level so by offering wine in a lot of different ways and globally to allow investors to both invest in wine in a much more easy way to invest in wine as a passive investment and then to also potentially financialize wine to the point where it can be used in beefy and in different types of financial schemes as a form of collateral because wine as we know is a very very powerful investment asset it actually returned 25 year-over-year this last year and and historically over the last 20 years returns around 9 annually and has much lower volatility than a lot of other assets so the ability to uh invest in an asset that's as stable and as um appreciative like like wine and then actually potentially use it as collateral take out a loan and do other types of things whether it's in DeFi or whether it's just to be a passionate investor collector of wine and then be able to have some liquidity on it is something that we see as a very powerful opportunity in the wine industry so that's a little bit i'm happy to answer any of the questions that wasn't clear great thank you thank you very much thomas and uh captain uh could you say a little bit uh about the work that you've been doing on uh wine or more specifically whiskey actually yeah so nice to meet the rest of the panel really interesting backgrounds this space is incredibly fascinating and uh you know it's quite a traditional industry but it's sort of embracing some of this new stuff around blockchain nfts the securitization side is interesting as well in this space so we've been working with a client i think david you're very aware of them we vinay may have mentioned it on one of your own podcasts with ig wines we've entered into a partnership with them recently uh they have they're a traditional wine merchant with a network of stores and they sell fine wines through that store but they also have an investment

[12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=750s) wide angle to their business as well so we're partnered with them to essentially look at blockchain type solutions for this space our first project will be co-developing a solution for the whiskey industry so they're selling large casks and they're looking to basically sell those to different investors and the whiskey barrels uh at the moment are incredibly it's a hot area they just seem to be selling and in high demand so i think they just sold one for one and a half million pounds uh to single buyer actually that one but our project will be about looking to securitize that so i've been working with Mattereum about 15 months my background is essentially i was a ceo of seven different organizations put an umbrella organization on top of it and then prior to that i was a head of commercial within the home office which for the people who are not in the uk that is equivalent to interior department or a state department in some other countries i was managing the olympics delivery for the department initially and then i went on to the larger larger commercial engagements within that department for over a course of nine ten years um and then prior to that i was a management consultant within kpmg boxwood uh dealing with dealing with um operational turnarounds but my background is as an engineer i'm a structural civil i did my first two degrees in there my mba was through scholarship and i graduated in 2010 so i'm very interested in the business angle and the use of this new technology in what can be quite traditional industries such as wine and spirits area and how we can almost use this as a transformational force to make these areas more efficient the main target being the fraud large fraud levels in this industry generally you know david i know has got fantastic little factoids about that side of things but you know it's commonly talked about 30 of the fraud is is endemic in the industry which is huge so yeah if any technology can bring that to a more manageable level sounds like it could have a good place well and i hope throughout the evening we will you know more than one panelist will will address the issue of counterfeiting so um i would like folks to to invite folks to either ask questions by posting them in the q and a tab or raising their hand if they would like to speak and we're going to take a

[15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=900s) couple of questions per panel and then we'll take more questions for everyone uh in the q a so if folks have specific questions about uh wine or spirits obviously hard assets nfts linked to wine and spirits please do ask them and whilst you think of your question or you type out your question i am going to start and uh i am going to start by picking up on something which a couple of the panelists have already touched on and uh my question is uh obviously this is a new area and this is a new technology and and and we're all uh we're all working to disrupt uh traditional traditional industry what is the biggest opportunity do you think in the space specifically for wine and for spirits and uh perhaps we can start in the order that folks introduce themselves and we'll do the next set of answers in reverse uh order um so uh adam perhaps you can start if if indeed you you feel this is a reasonable this is a reasonable question yeah sure so the question is what's the biggest opportunity i think so yeah yeah so it's interesting i've been in crypto since 2013 and um tokenizing real world assets has been something that i've heard since 2013 and it really hasn't taken off at all for until nfts in the last year and i think i think part of that is because nfts bring kind of more of a sense of ownership where you have the the art if every wine bottle had no art on the label i mean how far would the branding go but with nfts you can actually have kind of a visual dynamic you can have a portfolio of what you own um so the big opportunity is we're finally seeing the tokenization of physical um and with uh with younger people um that i've talked to with hello fam our audience skews a little younger is a lot of them love collecting but they don't have like wine cellars they don't have space they're used to having all their assets be digital they have their their crypto bank account they don't use cash they use crypt they use uh crypto et cetera

[17:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=1050s) um so for and they love alternative assets like you know pokemon cards are really big for the younger set uh metaverse digital assets are so the future uh for for the upcoming generation is all digital assets and they'd love to collect wine and nfts kind of combine alternative assets with what they're comfortable with with kind of the digital uh um uh gen z native uh uh platform so so yeah so lots of opportunities and that's where i see it uh thank you adam uh david we come to you next uh and again please please answer if you feel it is a valid question uh you're muted sorry about that um what's the biggest value for me you know i think that there's value in a ton of places i i really love what um what some of the other folks are doing here in investment i i do think there's a huge opportunity investment what we really look at and what we think is a is an enormous value is data and community um that's that's where that's kind of where we live data is really interesting in the wine business because typically you know the distance between a wine maker and a consumer is 15 years and 15 000 miles right like when you open a bottle of wine that was made by someone a long time ago in a place far far away and the the data really gets lost most wine winemakers there are it's a very atomized industry all the winemakers that i know as soon as the wine leaves the their shop maybe they know where individual boxes are going but after that they all get lost in the wild and without that data it's really hard for winemakers to decide what they want to to to to make great business decisions um they don't even know when their wines are being consumed uh much less where they're being consumed or who's consuming them so i i think that data is really important and then i also think community is really important again that separation of 15 years and 15 000 miles makes it really difficult to create community um but with nfts uh not only are you collecting data but with what um with what we're doing with with tasting tokens it really allows the winemaker to

[20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=1200s) be in contact with the consumer at the moment of consumption and um and not and kind of start to shape culture and community around that so i i know that those those things are are less uh not so much DeFi but uh but they're really interesting for me as being someone from the wine industry like those are just great values to unlock uh thank you very much and i'm already hearing some some some themes emerging and and i think they will they will continue to to solidify throughout the evening as we speak more uh thomas uh again if you feel my question is valid uh perhaps you could you could comment yeah definitely um i'll build off the last two um answers to a little to answer that a bit more so i think you have um something the authentication and the digitization process and then you have the financialization process um they kind they do play together but they're also a bit separate in terms of bringing value and i think from the digitization process in order for everything that david was saying about the data and the information being available the technology does need to catch up and become a bit more accessible in improving that process and i think that's why we have been hearing like adam saying these um physical assets being on on blockchain for so long because the concepts there and it's valid the technology in terms of some other areas like iot um nfts haven't really broken out until this year um and also the aspect of the ux and the ui and the current crypto space haven't fully caught up to make these more um to make these really adaptable products yet but just like with the internet that will come and things will change um but for now i would say focusing on the area that has the most value authenticating and quantifying the entire industry is an area that's really really powerful if you're able to get information on every harvest on all these different wine makers um either making that somewhat public or fully public you allow an entire industry to bloom and value to be added in a lot of different ways whether it's preventing fakes or whether it's allowing there to be a better investment market that can really grow the industry like you we've

[22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=1350s) seen with um commodities over the last couple of decades as an investment as investment assets so um yeah i think i think i don't know if that answered the question directly but um that was that's really what i see uh is the ability to quantify the industry make it digital um and then financialize it on top of that is is where there's going to be a lot of value and it's i think a few different steps to get there and there's different technologies that need to be developed in order for that process to work really well uh thank you very much thomas and before i come to captain again i'd like to say if anybody has got a specific question uh for this panel to do with wine to do with spirits uh please either put it in the q a dialogue or raise your hand and we will invite you to speak so moving moving moving on to captain again if you if you if you feel my question is valid uh perhaps you could comment um i think i'll be quite modest here and say look the wine and wine and spirits industries is a massive industry it's been going for hundreds of years pretty much as david said i think it's slightly okay to say at this point we don't know what the biggest opportunity is because it's still developing whether product market is fully there yet is a question yeah uh internet center sorry somebody somebody somebody's cutting through could you oh yeah thank you i think i bought someone to death and they fainted i apologize for that it's a usual effect my wife is well aware of that conditions um so so yeah um i was um just saying i think we might not know yet but i do think there's enough feature sets in the ability of blockchain [Music] and the irrefutable immutable facts of something being entered is is has a wide applicability not just to this industry but others so i think you know i think the challenge for us as tech on the tech side at least not just the industry side is is to work out decent partnerships in which we can start to explore those solutions because when we do that then the reality of how business is done now can start to address these new technologies and i think for me if you're asking opportunity question which you are anton the opportunity is size of the current market really because it would be a transformation of the current industry

[25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=1500s) using new technology would really redefine things so it's really big but i don't think we could really say where the sweet spots are yet but i do want to build on something david mentioned i think there's something i don't want to go too romantic about it but the whole spirits and wines industry there's stories behind things isn't it there's people experiencing the joy of drinking the the fine wine or the bottle but there's also this sort of story where that wine bottle got here through the vineyard and all of that i think we kind of in our Mattereum way of thinking about things we introduce a Mattereum asset passport so we're trying to passport the historical provenance aspects of the asset in our in our asset passporting process and that includes not just um you know the provenance aspects of where it came from which vineyard who certifies it what insurance is behind it all of that stuff but there's something about capturing that story in a in an information layer that is around this asset so i think you know we i quite i quite like the why the applicability of that part we just need a happy home where somebody really embraces that new functionality for me so that's all i have to say on it thank you captain so we've got a couple of questions in the q and a um and there is one address to thomas but i think uh i think uh others uh may respond to how thomas due to what thomas says to this and the question i'll read it out it's in the q a dialogue uh you said you would like to use wine as collateral are nfts suitable for this as they're not really liquid and divisible question mark how would you like to make this happen are there erc71 liquidity pools in a way so thomas i think it's a question for you but i think everybody else should be able to comment on that as well so so um what i was saying there was was more focused on the idea that um wine as an asset is something that has become more liquid over time in terms of its ability your ability to trade it um and that's happened through technology uh what nfts have the ability to do is take that to another level while proving provenance if with the correct technology is attached to the nft

[27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=1650s) and then what you can do there is because it's stored in a token you can actually provide ownership or title over to an entity and that entity can then hold that as long and then allow you to take a loan on it where traditionally that value transfer couldn't have happened in a physical form or it could have it would have to be very very it would have been very difficult so that's where the opportunity is here with the nft as collateral but there are levels to get there so right now what we're proposing is that a more centralized entity who can actually custody physical bottles and offer digital tokens to customers works also as that uh entity that offers out the loan on that collateral in the long run the vision would be that could just be global and it wouldn't have to be as centralized and that the nft actually worked as the legal title or or right over that nft i mean over that physical asset so we're in a little bit of a middle point right now so that's the way i would answer that question um does anybody any of the other panelists have uh something to add on that on the on the point of of liquidity adam david captain anything to add on i did i really like what thomas had to say but uh david did you want to come in on that well yeah i mean look wine has been uh a liquid asset for for for a long time um you know barry brothers as a centralized um you know uh as a centralized platform barry brothers has probably been doing that for 130 years um so it's uh you know the ability to be able to to trade wine to even borrow against your assets that are in a centralized uh location that's been around for a long time using entities to do that um really i think provides and again the vision long term of uh of you know what thomas is talking about to be able to do that in a decentralized way globally you know it's going to require some technology but it's uh i think the liquidity is probably already there the only problem with liquidity is um right now there's not a lot of price differential so if you were to get on you know wine searcher and look for a 2003 chateau palmare alter ego right

[30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=1800s) you're going to find a couple hundred bottles somewhere around the world and the price differential is going to be somewhere around five to ten percent right it'll all be around the same price the problem is is that those all those different bottles have very different provenance some of them maybe have been sitting in a bottled warehouse for 19 years and some of them may have traded and uh traded all around the world you know an owner in hong kong an owner in california in order in dubai and um so without knowing the chain of custody and without having that information uh transparent and immutable it's really hard to have real price differential in those two different bottles but with the technology i know that the thomas is building and some of the technology that we're doing that price differential is not only going to create a lot more liquidity in the market but it's also going to be a huge disincentive against fraud and counterfeit and incentive to have more perfect prominence so i i think the liquidity is probably there the technology is going to increase liquidity that's a great point thank you adam did you want to add anything on the liquidity point um so for liquidity um and for collateral i'll broadly say that with uh our two hello fam wines it's kind of it was kind of magical we launched you know a year ago to launch a completely new wine brand the wine bottles aren't physically released yet they're getting close but to have secondary trading volume uh on open c uh with no middleman uh actually happen that's it's pretty magical to me that that that nfts enable um kind of a new level of liquidity because yeah there's liquidity for like super well-known blue chip wines if you go through these centralized platforms but decentralized liquidity for brand new lines is unheard of so that's been super exciting and on the collateral part i'll say in the broader nft market it's pretty cutting edge there are some platforms where you could deposit your blue chip nfts as collateral and take out loans uh like your board apes etc um but those are only for like the biggest like super traded uh assets um so it's still a developing

[32:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=1950s) uh developing area for smaller assets uh thank you adam uh captain did you want to add anything before we conclude this this specific topic and and move on there'll be a there'll be opportunities to discuss more broadly yeah some of the things that i still in the q and a and then later in the networking but is there do you have something just just a quick sum up right i mean the panelists obviously are working the different parts of the problem here you're trying to bond under nft bond it just physical items how do you do that is that through some of the blockchain technology side of having hashes that are unique or are they the legal protections and i think i was quite taken by what thomas was trying to solve there and i think Mattereum was also aware of that issue how do you how does an nft represent legal ownership of the asset big problem right uh it's kind of i think we spent three years on that anton is hiding behind uh you know a bit of modesty here but he spent a long time developing that in the uk using uh uk jt laws about arbitration and uh we're proud of the work we've done there about putting in place system by which we can enforce through arbitration ownership of assets through nfts and uh this is even better than that the the the benefit of an arbitration mechanism that we can implement through our approach allows you to resolve disputes around ownership using an nft 168 odd jurisdictions so it's it's fascinating we should really talk thomas i think some of that may be helpful but uh yeah i think it's just it's just a general problem in physic bonding the physical to the nft you know there's lots of different ways you need to make that work okay thank you captain um okay so um i think let's conclude the wine topic specific because we've still got quite a lot to get through and say we will be able to uh interact with all of the panelists during the q and a later on broader issues as well as during the networking session so for now i'd like to thank all of our wine panelists and it sounds like you're all working on on incredibly important incredibly interesting parts of the problem as captain said um i can see that uh tiege from maker dao is now here so teach vinay are you comfortable now to move into your fireside uh chat and then perhaps after that we can take a couple of questions then take a break and then we'll we'll do the the the remaining topics and then we can go and

[35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=2100s) grab a beer and do some networking is that okay uh can we move into the uh into the fireside chat now absolutely good to go here great well in that case without further ado uh uh when i teach uh thank you very much uh for the opportunity to hear you have this conversation and over to you hey good to meet you um so uh i guess quick intros uh i'm vinay ceo of interim uh was the release coordinator for ethereum in 2005 and 15. it's actually run the launch process before that no i had to hear those long stories uh tell us what hats you're wearing today like i know you're wearing a couple different hats or maker you're also the vc just gives a little bit of background so people know who you are yeah sure so i i would say my primary hat is um is one of onboarding real world assets at maker dow i'm sure many on this call are very familiar with what we're doing there but basic premises historically makers focus on crypto collateral and i'm trying to build out um just as robust a process for onboarding uh stuff from the real world my other hat is uh i do have a small fund primarily liquid positions focused on uh on the long term as well cool so um tell us a bit about the sort of maker strategy uh when it comes to real world assets and collateralization like you know the high level but also what are the kind of gory technical details that are most difficult to resolve sure so um look i mean i think many folks kind of agree that for d5 to kind of fulfill its potential you know we've got to build these rails to the real world you know there's 650 trillion of real world asset value out there between real estate fixed income and equity and you know our impressive but small world of crypto is one trillion right so if we're trying to be a uh a money really um you know to for successful money to grow you need a network effect and so you need lots of places to export that diet lots of good collateral and different jurisdictions on chain off chain to die against um and so we're saying well we know real world assets are a part of kind of the scaling strategy for a successful maker but specifically um you know how do we keep things in mind like our liquidity considerations our kind of strategic objectives in terms of regulation um you know the sort of alignment with external managers external protocols uh originators how do we make sure all

[37:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=2250s) those things are structured in a way that we can go look at die holders and maker holders and say look the security consistency and reliability you used to historically when you mint die nothing's changed here we're just making the collateral base more dynamic we're bringing more consistent yields into the mix and as real world rates go up right and demand for crypto leverage drops it's kind of a nice carry trade to be able to put a flexible balance sheet in crypto when it's more appealing there and in the real world when it's more appealing there to answer your second question in terms of what's most complicated you know i think in the early days before you know everything kind of deterministically lives on chain whether it's crypto stuff or real world stuff you know there's a lot of um there are a lot of growing pants right and we need to kind of deal with risk assets and the traditional structures they live within um you know in a way that's not quite as trustless as people in crypto are accustomed to right and that educational process and even just building out those rails it takes time and it's complicated but we're committed to doing it right we see kind of what the north star is and we know kind of how to get there but it does take time um talk about the sort of distinction between things like centrifuge where you have uh essentially revenue streams going in versus the kind of holy grail of real estate how how does this stuff get talked about inside of maker yes so um i'm not sure i would i would draw the distinction between real estate and a centrifuge what i would say is is centrifuge is really a it's an infrastructure partner right what they're really trying to do is they're kind of sitting there in the middle and they're saying well okay maker i mean you want to onboard um you know fixed income assets from the real world but you'd like to do so in a way that it's more crypto native and so what they've put forth is a effectively a tokenization solution right that takes an asset and it it it slices it into two tokens is a senior and a junior so this is just sort of you know the beginnings of on-chain securitization that you're seeing right and so the way maker works right is typically we want to die against a token in a vault somewhere right and so if you're just onboarding real estate um you know that is obviously doesn't mesh all that well with a system where maker would like to keep collateral in a vault centrifuge has come along and they've said well you know we can sort of be the translator between real estate and and loans and trade

[40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=2400s) receivables in the real world you know create a tokenization solution um a structured one senior junior and then you can take that senior token and make her commit die against that right so you know there are a bunch of partners like that they're doing fascinating stuff in kind of the middleware space whether it's maple or true fire centrifuge we're really trying to build all those pieces so we can get to the point where all this stuff lives on chain i would say the other side of the business um you know we recently did a deal with a u.s regulated bank which was not on centrifuge that was much more traditional in nature right which as you can imagine if you're dealing with traditional counterparties especially those with long reputations you want to do things in a way that makes sense to them right so you can't just jam crypto on them you would like to innovate on structure but in general we use very traditional legal and commercial structures to make them comfortable because i think it was a good symbiotic deal for both parties yeah yeah that makes perfect sense i mean this kind of real world bridging stuff is you know we used to talk about this notion of the ricardian contract and the required contract in its purest form to the legal world just looks like another paper contract and to the blockchain world just looks like another smart contract and at no point does the thing kind of betray its hybrid nature to be the side everybody sees it as being native to the environment they're in the fact that it's a weird technical artifact that bridges this way they just never see um and what do you think the future is for real world assets in this sort of broader sense on chain right so we've got you know the issuance of currency against those assets in the maker context tell me a little bit about what else you see in that future yeah so look in uh i think if we fulfill the potential of d5 with regard to uh you know building capital markets fit for an internet age like the long long term is you know there's no distinction between real world assets and crypto assets right because everything just lives on cryptographs um you know it's kind of like all information that lives on the internet that's the native medium we we're trying to create a new native medium for value um i think for that to come to fruition um you basically need this middleware um to all be attacked and made more trustless so even something as basic as the oracles right in my view you know you can tokenize these assets you can bring them on chain you can mint uh currency against them but even just um the accounting of the assets themselves what's their value how do you

[42:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=2550s) surveil the change of performance how do you account for that change of performance and how do you ship that data transparently and robustly on chain so i think things like the oracle will be built out trustlessly i think things like the tokenization infrastructure will be built out trustlessly so i think something even like the sir so are you thinking trustlessly in a kind of crypto economic sense of like you know if the if the information coming in is inaccurate then somebody gets a stake slash are you thinking trustlessly as in something more kind of zero knowledge proof flavored where you actually literally it can't be wrong no that that that's a great question um and of course we realize that nothing is truly trustless right um you still can you still hear america i think my connection's going out a little bit well you're loud and clear no no glitch so um yeah i mean i i think that the first piece having a sort of more distributed um input data input to these systems whereby you have a mechanism for carving off um outliers and basically trying regulating the truth i think that's for sure one piece so now it's like lots of lots and lots of data yeah so a redundant i think people underestimate how much time it takes for those networks to be up and running with reputations building and slashing occurring for them to be actually better replacements for our existing real world oracles i mean if you think about existing real world oracles these are individuals who have spent their careers understanding the nature of the underlying assets right it takes time to build a decentralized redundancy system that compares the efficacy of that in other words you know are you going to you know pull us a sports score from auger are you going to pull a sports score from espn espn has a whole career of reputation and truth behind it but so that's kind of the slashing piece a redundancy to the data coming on chain i think the other piece that you mentioned is super interesting and absolutely where we're going the question is basically if you're onboarding assets from the real world and your idea is to be transparent about the reporting about the nature of these assets we need to be very careful about consumer protections um and and verifying that information is in fact

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