# Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022 (part 3 of 4)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [594], part 3 of 4. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2022-08-12 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Practical working of the contracting layer for real assets.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - IG Wines with Mattereum (2022): Mattereum partnership with IG Wines to create digital tokens for high-value wine and whisky.
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
  - The Future of Stuff (2020): Book on the philosophy under Mattereum: risk and morality in deals about physical things. (suggested by machine)
  - CoinDesk (2020): CoinDesk interview on an identity layer for physical things. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017.
  - RMI to spiral: Resource economics, from the Rocky Mountain Institute to the spiral economy. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - environment / green capitalism: Green economics: from oil efficiency to markets for facts about products. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (48%); Smart contracts, law & arbitration (17%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: NFT (31 here; 45 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); real estate (56 here; 106 sources in all, earliest dated 2013, 2 undated); real world assets (15 here; 24 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); physical asset NFTs (3 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); metaverse (4 here; 7 sources in all, earliest dated 2021); oracles (4 here; 10 sources in all, earliest dated 2016); land registry (3 here; 6 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); collectibles (6 here; 27 sources in all, earliest dated 2014); Mattereum (20 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); tokenization (6 here; 39 sources in all, earliest dated 2014)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): physical asset NFT; physical asset NFTs; condition report
- Importance: core-text score 0.34 (1.00 is the top), number 200 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [199] [IG Wines with Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/199.md): same career work: IG Wines with Mattereum
  - [722] ["10 Years of Ethereum... Tokenization is here." ---- RWA... (2025)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/722.md): close in content (cosine 0.90)
- On the same works, just before: [735] [Vinay Gupta - Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/735.md); [199] [IG Wines with Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/199.md); [800] [Lecture by Vinay Gupta at the opening event of Data in... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/800.md)
- On the same works, just after: [575] ['How Top Create RWAnfts for artwork in galleries, and... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/575.md); [576] ['12 Percent US Inflation The Flight in to Hard, Real... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/576.md); [577] [‘Mattereum, Digital Gold and Not So Stable Coins’ (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/577.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022, video, 2022-08-12, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [594], https://guptaoption.com/texts/594.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 3 of 4
[1:27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=5250s) is um most people are looking this as an extension of the existing uh financial system or the trading systems um whereas we're looking at it from an asset based economy point of view right which i think is where maker is coming from we make her very much of the perspective that they're going to basically issue money against hard assets rather yes but they're looking at at then having created that inside an instrument that interest then being leveraged um and not margin accounts and trading accounts yes yeah absolutely absolutely yeah well that that's in many ways an inherent danger in an asset-based economy because then eating the past oh yeah and hard assets plus leverage you know you're always going to wind up with drama for sure yeah we have no margin accounts in our system we have no leverage both that's really interesting and that's key to us because we don't want to take the systemic risks of the old system and inherit it and revisit it to the new okay what is different is that's very innovative indeed well if you take an asset-based system and you say the core of every payment is you're paying it an asset and if if i was to turn around to Vinay or anyone else on this call wait so when you say paying an asset you literally mean like you're going to pay me with a chunk of real estate i'm going to pay you with a smaller percent of a department of york please put your roof on my house that's it yeah yeah okay so now the thing is that you have to have the verification validation valuation processes systems running in real time behind that sure so if you have a real-time amm backing up your asset for each an individual property i actually have a proposal sitting with a government that i can't name um for enabling the trading of equity and reits uh for us payment instruments yeah and that that's that's a halfway house to where we are it's exactly that right it's a it's a quick and dirty way of getting people to be able to pay each other with real estate so um antoine you got a question a second ago yeah well so i was i was going to to say an observation uh teach has uh come back on the stage so if you would like him to comment on what you've been saying he could do that uh i hope but there is also a question in the chat uh from david same question as before which is uh for specifically on real estate uh in the decentralized system how do you reduce the risk of uh centralized management similar to a reit okay um might be able to help there you go for anybody that hasn't seen you before welcome back i'm i'm okay this is this is inevitably

[1:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=5400s) our review so give two chance to reintroduce himself because we moved somewhere go ahead going from where we are hi guys i was on before uh my name is tj ragsdalertiege um it's good to uh good to be here i am on the real world finance team at maker dow the team basically seeks to onboard structured credit assets from the real world into the collateral base for the stablecoin die which is pegged to the u.s dollar it's good beer fabulous great thank you all right andrew back to you yeah yeah so so when we're we're looking at this issue the key thing is is maintaining uh if i've answered this question correctly um is maintaining uh again it's not a share of a reit it's not a share of a company that owns a property it is the title of certificate itself recognized by governments hmlr land referees deed offices and under securities law so from that point of view we very carefully crafted it to make sure that it maintains its sanctity throughout the system and therefore there's no margin accounts on it there's no leverage on the asset each time it trades on the exchange the exchanges ensure uh that it has no lien charge or liability associated with it trades absolutely clean and one of the things we realized yeah are you getting that effect by holding the title uh partially yes this kind of lean property is a very hard thing to arrange we took a long look at that and it was nasty a lot of jurisdictions just don't have the mechanisms for doing that yeah and we we very carefully self-contained it within the the location of each of our our tpx exchanges so for example we have local adjudication on the chain we're totally consistent with the local rules our mining uh is a fully DeFi model uh the mining is all done within the local jurisdiction of that exchange so so they can get at the infrastructure they can get out the systems the servers the gateways et cetera et cetera yeah and then we're as always we decided to go i want to go back to this kind of technocratic point so you have title right so to ensure that nobody takes out a lien on a piece of property you know in what jurisdictions you don't have a register of interests where you can put the lean into a kind of public visible form we do how do you strip the liens off some if somebody comes with an encumbered thing how do you detect the encumbrance on the way into the system yeah absolutely um each of our each of our certificates is adjudic is sorry enumerated even down to the smallest sizes and we run a transparent asset registry for

[1:32:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=5550s) that so when we're dealing with land registries indeed offices we set up something called the blockchain property registry we operate in parallel to them we give them the keys that we give the the the next guys so you have state cooperation in establishing what amongst our register of interest so you're partnered with the governments to get these registers up and still running well not necessarily because what we realize very quickly is is a lot of the land registries um are are desperate to get a better registry yeah oh yeah yeah and they lack the resources for it so we we don't um take on any of their responsibilities they have their acts of parliament which define their activities but i stress to add here a couple of points one a third of the properties united kingdom has never been registered on our land registry here there's no legal requirement for to be registered and that exists under law the other piece of that is is uh fully two-thirds of the property in the uk kingdom has no lien charges or liabilities on it at all yeah absolutely and part of what's driving this entire process is the requirement of of national economies to find a better way to monetize their assets in the high-end place environment drive tax receipts absolutely and i mean all of this kind of stuff right i mean you know our experience with this is that the devil is always in the detail the you know being able to figure out how to detect these encumbrances and how to detect problems like hey the building has driver or something like it's the management of those conditions of exception that becomes the heart of building a system that has like durable integrity i mean the challenge was for us is to work out the economic uh could we do original search and survey on every property listed you know it it's a bit it's exactly like the ipo process you'd expect for a public company all right and there's reporting requirements there's insurance we monitor the insurance we monitor the properties we audit the process we verify the assets at each stage throughout so the risk absorption in this you mentioned insurance so you have something with title you have somebody that asserts that the title is clean you then have insurance in the loop so if they've made a mistake there's somebody there i catch it so title insurance uh there's hazard insurance uh there's insurance for the asset on the exchange gee this is you know the kind of gory horror of the physical real estate business i mean you know i can see my maker prefers things like nicely tidied up uh fixed income revenue streams yeah yeah talk to us a wee bit here about you know kind of how does maker think about real estate

[1:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=5700s) basically right because everybody i think is looking at real estate like you know here's the mood and we'd like to put it on a stick what's the kind of maker perspective on real estate as sort of the ultimate asset class i mean i think in a sense um you know real estate is it it sort of is the holy grail of on-chain securitization but it's also like the first it's it's like an elementary obsession as well when people think about what tokenizing assets look like the first thing that comes to mind is real estate i think that's because it's so understandable and people think about it as a wealth generating asset that's consistent it's provided yield over time people are that are familiar with sort of securitization concepts whether it's cmbs or rmbs the way we look at real estate is you know it is part of a broader portfolio of credit assets that make dye more resilient what we don't like about real estate at all is if we want to onboard real estate which we have and will continue to in the near term it's very much just shoehorning d5 into existing traditional structures so for our recent deal with huntington valley bank or even society general um you know we're leaning on traditional structures we're making sure that you know maker token holders have the rights and remedies in the real world that any um that any lender would would benefit from um so we think you know we'll continue to build out the you know rwa protocol if you will to start to bring more of those aspects around rights and remedies for real estate on chain but i think just naturally uh the asset class by virtue of really living in you know municipal ledgers and being you know so inextricably corporeal it's just it's meat and potatoes it's atoms um it's just it's just hard right um and so until we get to the stage you know 10 15 years out where everything is deterministic and beautiful and you know trading a token on chain is not recognized only by swiss law as entitling the owner to the underlying asset but all jurisdictions um you know this is kind of this is kind of the uh the middle ground we're left with yeah and it's i mean it's quite swampy you know we've extended into gold relatively uh enthusiastically and real estate is a very very tentative one step at a time process because the complexity is enormous i remember a couple years ago talking to

[1:37:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=5850s) some folks from the netherlands land registry and the in the netherlands the um geospatial intelligence agency like the art of the equivalent of ordinance survey uh is um fused into the land registry it's a single body and they had gone through and uh taken every single patch of wild like every square meter of the netherlands and they'd figured out exactly who owned it and how it was owned what the deeds of the rights and so on were right back to scanning 800 year old goat hide parchment deeds in old dutch they had a rough translation of what it said they put that stuff in bland registry and said if you ever need to litigate on this here's a scan of the parchment and then the original power trends were put into kind of deep storage and the fact that you might wind up having to go back 800 years and get an old dutch certified translation for modern court before you even handle a property dispute in the netherlands like i've never forgotten that as like there is a kind of relatively simple end of real estate and then there is a relatively hard end to real estate and you know we we very specifically steer towards the easy end of that spectrum because the hard end is unthinkably difficult i have to come back on that one Vinay uh you know when we looked at uh italy has some very good property law but it still takes some 19 years to settle a property case and india i'm afraid it takes 30 years so uh you know as much as the laws might be good greece right greece has informal titling where you think you bought a part of land and then five people tell you that it actually belongs to somebody else because they misdeclared it for tax reasons three generations ago and everybody honors that because the ledger is held socially yeah it's a very it's a slippery business and you know i remember um talking to hernando de soto about this stuff uh this was a satoshi round table back in the day um and you know de soto is the guy who basically you know everybody thinks of de soto has been kind of a left-wing leader you know oh he champions the rights of the working people and they have their one thoughts in these peasant economies and they get land tight on all the rest of it and de soto is actually a hard right ultra capitalist who basically says look the only way that you can prevent peasant resolute revolutions is by giving the peasants access to the court system and they don't get access to the court system without titles if you don't give them access to the machinery of capitalism they become marxist and then they blow up your bridges how'd you considered and desoto was very proud of the fact that he'd presented prevented a bunch of peasants insurgencies by going out there

[1:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=6000s) and getting people access to courts um so you know that is a the politicization of land um you know is is not greatly seen in the cities of the developed world but you get out to the periphery and even the concept that the land is ownable becomes questionable as you go and to say the jungles of india where the naxalites are of the opinion that the land is not something that has title um this sort of marks philosophical theory no no a deep area isn't it fundamental the ownership of of the asset we think is uh critical um particularly when you you have an enormous aggregation of wealth between the acid owning and the non-acid ointment um so access to the acid in the first place we think is absolutely critical for for future social harmony um and and if you can create exchanges where someone can buy a slice of a property and share in the ownership of that uh and use that as a form of direct money um direct exchange holds value absolutely i mean that's enormously valuable having the ability to do essentially transactions it would be forex transactions but instead to use uh swaps of real equity in real estate you know exactly if you're a fujitsu and i o ibm we've both got offices in new york and as we pay each other for goods and services we're just exchanging equity in our buildings you know as long as you don't end up with horrible complexity in tax it keeps you the inflationary economy it means that contracts can be priced in something which is long-term theoretically stable yeah they're interesting pieces on the tax side um you know which we're working on uh with governments um one one of the key things is is as each exchange launches any uh we we actually enable that any property taxes that are due get paid um before the asset is moved um capital gains down the usual rules um and what we've seen already is is there's a huge value in that because in the uk for example your stamp duty is is at a threshold where most of these transactions will go through without attracting stamp duty which is very good for the uk economy as a whole because it it will enable more property to be the other aspect is in the us you have capital gains uh rollover so if you buy a property sell it and then use those proceeds to buy another property within three months you have no capital gains to pay on that which is how mr trump managed to amass his wealth and these sort of things is they're different in different jurisdictions and you have to build exchange to to keep the tax code in place yeah yeah that makes perfect sense

[1:42:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=6150s) and i mean that kind of jurisdiction such as hard work well done for getting through that yeah and anthony's is the premise that um regulators should come around to the idea of the 1031 being applicable even when the whole is fractionalized um it's a good question uh we've we've been dealing with that i mean we try uh we try to maintain ourselves as as uh platform operators as exchange operator tax code down to the parties we we tell them what's possible um even to the point of of micro taxation of of assets uh transferring in other countries in theory um and that's very interesting to them because it effectively allows them to look at tax differently more on a consumption taxation level which is easier to collect and and and cause you know lower costs for them so so these are some of the things that are in their minds as we go uh our job is to enforce current taxation levels you know to be perfectly clear when we we're with the local regulators we work at the local tax authorities it's to mirror what they've already done um but some of the points that we've had with the fca on on these without necessarily saying too much of what they're saying um is is there certain things that they can tax and there's certain things that it's impossible for them to ever tax and they're acknowledging that and they're trying to deal with it they're having a few cases of indigestion over there but they're getting there um i'm conscious of the time and and domo has just reminded me that that that we we only have a few minutes left to go and we did promise a wider q and a so could i please invite all of the panelists who have already been on the stage to unmute or to prepare to answer questions and if there are questions for them may i invite all participants to ask questions of all or any panelists if there aren't questions for all panelists we can continue talking of course about real estate i see that kate quite had a question about real estate about tokenized apartments uh perhaps i could invite her to speak and to ask that question uh with her voice i can see that there are a few other comments and questions in the chat so uh i mean this is this is an informal setting so it's up to uh it's up to us how how we go but if there are questions for all of the or all of the panelists please do

[1:45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=6300s) ask them if not perhaps kate i could invite you to speak and to ask your question about real estate would that be okay uh i can see that i think kate you're logged in from more than one device so i'll invite you your first device and see if you're able to ask your question no that's is that's that might be muted okay to any kate um so thank you very much for being on the panels today uh it's really good to get kind of cross section of views on uh sort of you know real world assets real estate the you know the physicality um uh really really good to see the diversity of opinion uh from the stuff that you can bring to the stuff that you live in to the stuff that you spend uh do we have some questions lined up should we do this thing oh well we've got another question about real estate in the in the q and a dialogue which we could look at uh or we could we could move on to the after party discussion actually come on stage and ask the questions we can do that come on someone hop up there yeah do it i'm i'm dying to know what david rankins looks like because he asked the best question so far hey there's good questions actually great write david up and see if he comes from the ones to come up tell us a little what's on his mind uh uh dom can you are you able to give david the ability to speak hey here we go there we are david david you you you you're on the stage uh you have the floor if you wanted to uh say your question out loud no all good it's just mostly comments right no i i i got into this space early into the metaverse section i came from a real estate background having a broker's license but um and being in construction in real estate but got into the metaverse applications because um i was saw the the ability to having title on chain right at the time in 2020 i was looking at a foreclosure and i had called because it was a small little town and the guy in the title company said yeah i'll take about about two weeks to get you information on that for title and i'm like two weeks at the same time i was looking at metaverse property and looking at the fact that i could look at the full transaction history on title uh you know on chain to see all the transactions of who bought sold when it was purchased and all this

[1:47:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=6450s) stuff was like you know this would be absolutely brilliant and wonderful if we had all of our title in in real estate you know this way um and so that kind of brought me into the whole space and was you know it's made me very interested in the fact that we know maybe one day we may be able to do this same thing with mortgages um there's platforms out there that let you borrow at a half percent against your ethereum um with no interest right and so when you start seeing things like that and you're like wow you know there's definitely some financial innovation that can be done in this space that if we can find a way to put title and real estate on this unfortunately it's going to be a long time to get governance on boarded in this process right but once we can get that i see a lot of benefit but there obviously does come risk with that such as if you're in possession of your own property what happens if you lose your seed phrase which was your title to your property and other various things so it's always very fascinating that one we have pretty good control over right because of the way that we do this kind of legal binding and all the stuff involving our protection regarding contracts it gives us pretty good contingency management the event somebody loses their keys you know it's one of the things where we think that failing over to regular litigation is a good way of handling key loss because it discourages people from losing their keys it makes clear that losing your keys is a disaster but in the event that it happens there is a mechanism where you can go to a court they can actually restore the link between your physical property and a new key in a kind of override context so but does it rely on a corporation well it relies on a court right on a court okay so yeah if there's a court system that's integrated with it then i could see that the problem you know like i i played in d5 now for two years and um you know people always say oh they're concerns of hacks and exploits and and there are it's fair it's it's a beta system in my opinion and we're basically testing new financial systems um but the thing is is then i go and look at people who've been playing in c5 on something like voyager or celsius who now have that hundreds of thousands of dollars billions millions of dollars trapped in a system that was a trusted system trusting some entity and the whole purpose that i see in the benefit of DeFi is the fact that we uh once these protocols are set um obviously we need to test these protocols but once they are set there's mostly a trustless system where there's no entity that we are you know relying on who can walk away with our funds at the end of the day yeah um you know so that system is

[1:50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=6600s) what i'm believing in the long run and it takes time to build all this stuff but i just i see the vision long term it makes me hopeful um we have a question from nelson i'm not sure whether he'd like to come on stage to ask it or i could read it out uh perhaps i could read it out for purposes of uh speed and i think that's a great question for everybody to have a go at how do you see the tokenization of real world assets connect with the move around refi regenerative finance carbon markets and esg i think that's a really good question i was wondering whether all or any panelists would like to comment on that i i i can give this one a hack i mean i think um you know ultimately the tokenization of real estate and the creation of new and better climate assets ultimately suffer from the same weakness which is we haven't actually taken the time to address the primary oracle problem right which is you still are going to have a trusted oracle on the real estate side which is you know a 65 year old appraiser with a clipboard on the climate asset side you know you ultimately still have the vera carbon process ledgering these assets right and both those are imprecise and um or processes that could use improvement i think until we address the primary problem we haven't really gotten there i think for makers but they have an error rate right like you know because they're a human process you know half percent one percent a third of a percent they're always going to have a default error rate for sure yeah and i mean i believe you can go further on on the climate side right like you know i assume this this group is is privy to the dynamics there but but it's really kind of a clown show in the background right i mean it it these processes enrich the consultants and the lawyers and you know and it's just very imprecise it's it's it's kind of a joke right until we address that piece which i think crypto economic systems have the potential to you know you haven't really unlocked uh like a genuine zero to one or an incremental advantage against the existing system there are protocols like flow carbon that are looking to bring credits on chain right but you're still taking the same sort of busted ledger and just representing things on chain what i do think is interesting here is as we've recognized with the renewables process until the economic thing and the right thing are the same there's no lasting change that really happens and you know maker has um what is in my view

[1:52:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=6750s) an unprecedented opportunity to drive towards the ends we want to see in the world by combining recent oracles with um a concomitant competitive cost of capital if we see the things we want to see right so if we can verify that in fact you know this party is um you know applying green efficiency standards to their building you know we meant die against that building and we can drop that cost of capital by 25 bits but we can also do and this is a little bit a little bit of a reach but if you think about the what what economic incentives do to galvanize behavioral change not only can we incentivize more sustainable activity but we can also incentivize asset originators and asset managers to pipe more transparent data on chain in other words you if you um embed a more rigorous oracle process such that our die holders can see exactly what's backing these real world assets we can in fact give you a slightly better cost of capital and i think that's where things start to get interesting for me so vignette vignette i thought you said something very interesting earlier um in regards to you know data and providing data where you have the potential for first slashing i'm sure most of us are aware of proof of stake right and and if somebody is you know male aligned and doesn't act accordingly they get slashed right so i mean i think that's a great idea let's say we had appraisers who were working with this system right and then uh they provided the data and they had some stake in the network of this system that they get rewarded they get paid through and if they show proof that you know all sudden that they're providing false data their stake gets cut and i think that would be a brilliant system but i mean that's that's how it works right we've been selling you know we sold our first gold on open c ten months ago uh with exactly that thing implemented on the legal side very cool pretty cool we we have a couple i think i think we should we should move to the after party relatively soon but we have got a couple more quite interesting questions which have popped up i think which which from the panelists might be particularly strong on so if i can uh if i can do them in reverse order if that's okay um so the first question is from uh matthew i can't see your surname matthew but uh the question is how does d5 plug into

[1:55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=6900s) physical asset nfts particularly collectibles uh fractionalization leveraging etc and other are there any in real life irl use cases and uh perhaps we could come back to marina and to griff to start with for that one and then others can jump in as well um sure i will go first if you guys can still hear me please do yes uh so um it is a very broad question to start with sorry you broke up there fine art any type of antiquities anything you can think of that has some type of rarity embedded in it um in regards with art i think uh the real life use cases um as per fractionalization sorry marina you're breaking up a little bit um uh perhaps we could go to griff with that with that question and then marina can uh maybe move her connection to somewhere to somewhat to somewhere a little bit with better reception and then we could come back to marina uh uh griff yeah i'll jump in here uh it's a really great question matthew just to speak to it i think we're in the early innings of seeing these use cases really be built out with 4k we just had our first d5 loan of an actual rolex with arcade so plugging in and having that use case um will be something that i think we'll just start seeing a lot more in the future whether it's lending i think fractionalization of physical assets something i'm really fascinated with are like physical asset acquisition dows of course regulations and fractionalization that's just one of the bigger issues where physical assets can start resembling more of securities so there's a lot of different layers to that for instance that's something that we're not willing to handle internally just because of the current u.s regulatory frameworks um but i do think as they kind of get broadened out in

[1:57:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=7050s) scope that will be something for in real life use cases to just continue to expand and grow um would thank you very much griff would anybody else like to jump in on that question touch on securitization briefly um so you know generally speaking if you sell an entire asset as an nft here's your gold brick here's your you know medigliani print wherever it happens to be generally speaking that token will not be a security if this that token is for something like a rental apartment it generates a revenue stream genuinely that generally that will be thought of as being a security um and when you take something like a painting and split up to ten parts that also those parts will tend to be securities the um the tricky part with all of this stuff is about minority shareholder protection so if i own one percent of a painting and 51 of it goes to a bunch of lunatics from eight chan who decided they're gonna take it out and burn it for kicks um do i have any minority in breast or protection that protects me from how people irresponsibly handling my assets and that question like if we can figure out how to solve a minority investor protection in these kind of areas that's the sort of approach that brings down the risk and brings down the risk and brings down the risk to the part where it's not inconceivable that you can see small jurisdictions start having new frameworks for securitization of physical assets as long as the investor protection protocols are in place um okay marina if if your connection is back could you perhaps have another go at answering that question or if not we can save it for the for the for the after party no yes apologies about my connection um i'll definitely take uh more questions but i think um the other panelists covered it extensively okay thank you thank you very much marina so we have i think let's conclude on a on a question which i really like the sound of and i think it's it's sort of asking for advice and it's asking uh for commentary and i think everybody will have something to say about it and this is from adam and he's asking if you were starting a company that wanted to back a particular fine asset class as an nft or otherwise how would you begin building building a network finding funding etc i think it's i think it's a really good question because after all this this conversation is all about everybody who

[2:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=7200s) is who is working with physical asset nfts um who would like to start and who would like to comment on on adam's question uh uh anthony perhaps you perhaps you could because you you you've described how you went through that process some years ago from the land of infinite pain and suffering i'm listen uh for adam i think the issue is always find an asset that that everybody uh and teach uh made a good point on this one that everyone knows uh property is a big ass asset so to speak everybody knows it they all feel that they it's tangible it's real so find an asset that's real to people uh that they they already inherently trust that has physical attributes that they can see touch feel um and ideally has some utility value um because that's that's uh that's probably more and more key in a in in the kind of economic cycle we're in right now so if you can find that then after that it's getting the trust systems in place we've come across it very often in this conversation with this community uh it's it's getting the transparency the trust um we like d5 we like distributed change i'm gonna be a little um antagonistic to some on this call we we like distributed change we like we like adjudication locally uh we we like that assets when they're on boarded and this is the point we've raised with quite a few regulators it's the onboarding and off ramps the on-ramps off-ramps that they they're the ones that you can concentrate on they're the ones where if you can make sure the asset comes on cleanly if you make sure the users come on cleanly then you've got a healthy ecosystem it's when the on-ramps and off-ramps fail um that has a problem and uh there was a point one thing to don't do is is don't do the invisible statue that was done in italy um it worked very well for the individual concern but it it gives us the rest of us in the industry hell um well yeah again marina you described some of your experiences in in moving from web to to web three do you have something uh something that you could say to adam uh yeah definitely i think um a a piece of advice uh i i would uh start off with um um regardless of whether it's web 2 or web 3 i think it's important to really find an active pain uh for the end user that you're going to be targeting and um there is this uh i

[2:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=7350s) see it as a as a problem actually with the existing web3 space that there's um innovation uh with this new exciting blockchain technology that's actually not solving any any existential problems so blockchain um efficiency that solve problems and if you happen to come come by in your like work or daily um daily operations whatever you do whatever your industry is you happen to encounter an issue or um a friction or something that where you could say oh there could be some improvement made here um and you could genuinely see uh this uh the web3 tools uh sort of serve a genuine purpose i think you should go with that for sure that's that's my two cents let me just add something real quick so i think i think both those answers are really interesting i'd actually like to combine them i think when you think about you know bringing assets on chain you can really think about the auspicious approaches i think are either on anthony's side which is take an asset that there's consensus around its value people are comfortable with it it's everywhere it's ubiquitous it's not super volatile right like real estate and find a way to rigorously introduce those assets into whichever players in the ecosystem can either extend balance sheet against it or tokenize it or whatever right so that's over here familiar asset and then you do all the heavy lifting to make sure the blockchain and that asset can speak to one another i think marina's side is also super interesting which is focusing on the particular pain points that if solved unlock some sort of new service and so i think like when you think about bringing an asset on chain like if you can solve certain very difficult oracle problems you can actually create completely novel assets right and what's beautiful about that is if you're able to create a novel asset and mint it natively on chain you don't deal with all the path dependencies of trying to force real world assets into this new consensus environment so for example just a hypothetical you know imagine a um imagine a protocol that basically it was you know it created digital solar receivables

[2:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=7500s) those receivables basically took the metering rate you know the the energy harvesting from the voltaic panel and the market rate for whatever energy is it combines the two it creates an automatic receivable right and that receivable lives on chain you know people can finance that or whatever in in permissionless liquidity pools that's a that's a product that does not exist today right and you've just sort of created a deterministic oracle driven debt product on chain and so i think it's really one of those two either familiar asset do the heavy listing lifting or create a completely novel asset that um that leverages the fundamental strengths of of the blockchain thank you very much does anybody else have uh a comment on or or or any more suggestions on adam's question um ian please i mean i think it boils down to something that is fundamental to anything that you start is know your audience um you can come up with wonderful things but if nobody wants them they're not going to work so you know the key thing is who wants who wants who's likely to want what you're doing how many of them are there of um are they going to interface with the means um of supplying this and are they willing to pay what um what they will what you will need them to pay and if none of if none of that works uh all the other innovation is going to fall flat on its face um thank you ian does anybody else adam says thanks all so i think we've we've uh done our best to answer these questions anybody else have anything to add for him time for one more question are we gonna wrap it here um we could do one more question i mean i can i can see a few a few more questions there is there's another question from from kate which i could read out or she could she could say uh shall i read it out which is okay jordan pop on sage for a sec i could i could read the question out um which is i think it's actually it's a really nice nice way to conclude because everybody you know every everybody here obviously has you know has has a vision for for a better world um so kate's question is uh name your

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Continues in https://guptaoption.com/texts/594-4.md (part 4 of 4).
End of [594] Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022, part 3 of 4. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.