# Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022 (part 2 of 4)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [594], part 2 of 4. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2022-08-12 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Practical working of the contracting layer for real assets.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - IG Wines with Mattereum (2022): Mattereum partnership with IG Wines to create digital tokens for high-value wine and whisky.
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
  - The Future of Stuff (2020): Book on the philosophy under Mattereum: risk and morality in deals about physical things. (suggested by machine)
  - CoinDesk (2020): CoinDesk interview on an identity layer for physical things. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017.
  - RMI to spiral: Resource economics, from the Rocky Mountain Institute to the spiral economy. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - environment / green capitalism: Green economics: from oil efficiency to markets for facts about products. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (48%); Smart contracts, law & arbitration (17%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: NFT (31 here; 45 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); real estate (56 here; 106 sources in all, earliest dated 2013, 2 undated); real world assets (15 here; 24 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); physical asset NFTs (3 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); metaverse (4 here; 7 sources in all, earliest dated 2021); oracles (4 here; 10 sources in all, earliest dated 2016); land registry (3 here; 6 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); collectibles (6 here; 27 sources in all, earliest dated 2014); Mattereum (20 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); tokenization (6 here; 39 sources in all, earliest dated 2014)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): physical asset NFT; physical asset NFTs; condition report
- Importance: core-text score 0.34 (1.00 is the top), number 200 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [199] [IG Wines with Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/199.md): same career work: IG Wines with Mattereum
  - [722] ["10 Years of Ethereum... Tokenization is here." ---- RWA... (2025)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/722.md): close in content (cosine 0.90)
- On the same works, just before: [735] [Vinay Gupta - Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/735.md); [199] [IG Wines with Mattereum (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/199.md); [800] [Lecture by Vinay Gupta at the opening event of Data in... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/800.md)
- On the same works, just after: [575] ['How Top Create RWAnfts for artwork in galleries, and... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/575.md); [576] ['12 Percent US Inflation The Flight in to Hard, Real... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/576.md); [577] [‘Mattereum, Digital Gold and Not So Stable Coins’ (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/577.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022, video, 2022-08-12, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [594], https://guptaoption.com/texts/594.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 2 of 4
[45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=2700s) correct without revealing sensitive information right and this this is a perfect perfect zk solution we're not quite there yet but there are people working on it that will effectively be able to verify to die holders or to anyone on chain that you know collateral is in fact what it is it's located where it is someone said something about this collateral at some time it was signed on chain so i think we're going there i think both of those mechanisms you mentioned will play a role but i think they take time i think that's kind of the theme yeah absolutely i mean the the Mattereum approach to the stuff is that we do the resolution of this stuff on the legal side of the bridge rather than on the digital side of it so when somebody has an asset that they want to use in the system um what we wind up with is multiple entities of demonstrated solvency who write legal warranties against the valuable attributes of the asset and in the event of a dispute that stuff gets resolved in an arbitration court and then it settles against an insurance policy or we can generate a court order and self-physical assets like real estate to make people whole whoops did we always teach maybe just this video and you're back um so that i was just saying that in the um Mattereum system you know when you have the physical assets uh the tie to the real world and the the certification of valuable attributes is that you have real world experts who have um collateral which is accessible not just slashing of stake on chain but direct access by court order and that means that we can basically uh have the assets collateral uh um have that have the assets warranted and guaranteed with accessible uh funds that can be reached in the event it's something that a court's happening and then because we're operating in the uk under the uk jurisdiction task force rules if these physical assets are being used as a collateral in these deals are turned into nft's own chain in the process of the arbitration the arbitration court can generate essentially a court order that causes the transfer of the assets on chain using essentially back doors and the smart contracts you start the system with here's an insurance policy or here's a house or some other piece of collateral that is accessible uh in the event of a court order from the arbitration courts and then as we get more and more of that collateral has been actually physically put on chain then at that point there's arbitration towards rather than having to go and get a court order in a fines real world can

[47:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=2850s) simply transfer ownership of the physical assets on chain by moving the nfts and it's very much a bootstrapping process because you need collateral on both sides of the physical bridge you know you need cryptocollateral here immune physical collateral there and both sides of it are accessible to the arbitration courts it's quite a robust mechanism but it does take a lot of time to build out those kind of systems and you know kind of get them to the point where they actually work we have a couple of questions from the floor uh i was wondering whether you'd like to pick them up now you'd like to continue the conversation for a couple more minutes uh sure let's see what we've got in terms of questions uh teachers are right for you yeah guys whatever you want uh okay so the first it's it's more of a comment in the question uh but uh i guess it needs addressing uh it's from david rankin uh in the decentralized system how do you reduce the risk of a centralized management similar to a right crypto should remain a trustless system says david so the question is around the fact that if you're onboarding assets from the real world you are not going to benefit from the same trustlessness that crypto native collateral has how do you deal with that disconnect is that correct i think that would be my interpretation of that i think there's a so if you've got something like a real estate investment trust then the trust managers are making decisions about what pieces of real estate to buy what to sell what to maintain when you're putting your roof on something like there's a management function you have to do for a lot of real world assets if you have gold voltage you might want to decide you need to get a different insurer move it a different fault and if we wind up in a system where we have essentially one gigantic reef which has all of the assets in it which are then being used all the way through the crypto ecosystem um obviously that entity winds up with a huge amount of negotiating power when it comes to setting terms i think was that the question david um we have a we have a thumbs up going up i can't see whether that's from david or not all right good enough yes more or less okay um we've got one more what's wrong with that one and then teach any thoughts on that yes so so i'm i'm not sure i'm completely capturing it but but but i think what i'll respond with will be useful to the to the asker nevertheless so you know i think in general um

[50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=3000s) you know when you're dealing with onboarding assets from the real world i think there are two vectors um that make it potentially more trusted and thus more corruptable than the crypto native assets were accustomed to i think the first is what you're basically doing is when you bring real world assets on chain i view it as a re-ledger you're taking an asset that already lives in an external consensus environment basically another chain you can think about it as living in another l1 and you have to find a way to represent that asset in your ledger so typically that has some sort of wrapping function and as we all know those bridges that tends to be where the vulnerabilities and where the corruption can be i see it as no different i don't think i have to go too much deeper on that it might in fact be more trusted than simply you know wrapping btc and putting it on if you're i think the other piece which has been um you know interesting for me to explore at maker is i i think in general the crypto community is of course very very smart but they tend to think about things from first principles um and think that if they only use first principles they can figure out anything which is a great attitude but some of us have spent our careers trying to understand structured credit it is an extremely complex endeavor for so many reasons and so i think by virtue of that when you're bringing these things on chain they're going to be a handful of people that that understand or think we understand the essence of how to deal with these assets to account for their risk to structure to negotiate and by virtue of that sort of rarified knowledge you're going to have a situation where it's a privileged few who are really kind of dictating the thought about underwriting these assets and so this sort of um what should i call it this ideal or this utopia of a decentralized set of token holders you know underwriting collateral actively is nice but it's just it's unrealistic right and so the question is how do you bridge that gap whereby you use sort of domain experts to convey the risk of an asset to the token holders but ultimately token holders are in the end responsible for actually onboarding collateral i would say that those i mean it's absolutely something we're working with and i think the interim before we get to this truly deterministic world where all assets live on chain um this isn't this is an issue we'll have to deal with sure and i mean this gets

[52:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=3150s) into kind of two categories right so there's cat review one which is essentially title risk do you own the stuff you think you own then the second problem is condition report so for us the kind of two pulls of this are real estate and gold so gold the condition reporting is very very simple for gold but ensuring that there's no title risk is a little more complex because gold is often owned in many many many layers of paper and getting back down to actual clean title on a bar of gold is you know sometimes a lot more complicated than it ought to be on the other hand real estate title is pretty easy to ascertain because you can look at land registers and registers of interests and but the problem in real estate is condition reporting how do you know if it has rising damper a flooded basement or something else on these kind of lines and i think in both of these instances you require different solutions because the shape of the risk is very different in those instances we are chasing this concept uh right now which we call goldfi which is we think there's an opportunity to basically reboot the d5 ecosystem uh using decentralized provision of 400 ounce gold bars so 20 30 40 50 providers of bars vaulting very jurisdictions actually decentralized provision of gold into those pools and as long as all the bars are good delivery bars properly set up inside of the good delivery framework that gives you this ability to use very well controlled collateral i think there's a lot of opportunity for that because the carrying capacity for gold as a collateral asset is enormous and in an environment where we've got 12 percent u.s inflation the fight towards hard assets from the dollar economy is going to be enormous it's not just crypto people the collateral ordinary american taxpayers have to get the heck out of the door before they lose 12 of their volume uh a year and that creates an enormous acceleration of the d5 architecture because it means that people really need to get out the door to nominated world before the thing eats their savings um we've got a couple more questions from floyd i think one of them uh we should say for the art uh and uh collectibles uh panel but there is one more which uh captain had answered but i think it's it's it's uh it's relevant so it's a question from philip uh and the question is if nfts representing

[55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=3300s) real world asset ownership are traded can anyone from any jurisdiction buy and sell these nfts great questions good question right um so i mean from our perspective the answer to that is it depends our take on this is you know Mattereum generally speaking uses opence for the buying and selling of assets right um so we say hey if openc is willing to do business with whoever this is that's good enough for us i think that was okay as a starting position in the long run if you start talking about having very serious financial infrastructure in these kind of settings in all probability you are not going to be able to sell an nft that ties a physical asset to somebody that lives in a jurisdiction that's currently under sanctions and do not face problems and that i think is a generic issue for the entire industry sanctions enforcement is something the governments are not going to ignore and if you begin to world successful real world asset systems and they're being used for sanctions busting without any child without financial regulators will arrive with taxes so i think inevitably we're going to wind up with some kind of ecosystem where it's possible to ascertain the jurisdiction of somebody buying an asset and then we get back to the zero knowledge proof stuff that tj was talking about where you make sure that you don't leak identity at the same time as you verify jurisdiction that would be my answer teach i think that that's that's very complete and i tend to agree i mean i also think you know i think for stuff that's strictly financial in nature in other words it looks smells like like a security or has a yield attached i think um you're absolutely right i mean you're going to need to comply with whatever regulatory architecture has been built there what i will say though is a space that i'm fascinated in and i think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg here is to what extent nfts unlock non-strictly financial assets in other words what sort of assets can you bring on chain like you know ip i suppose um or access or utility nfts that give one you know access to you know an artist or access to a subscription like you'll send this hotel room by buying an nfg for those nights in the hotel exactly and in a situation like that or a ticket right a you know ticket to a sports event i mean i can very much see the nft space in terms of

[57:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=3450s) how it has to comply with sanctions and how permissionless the buyer tool can be very much very much bifurcating right now this conversation i'm on the bermuda fintech advisory board and you know in that context we've had this conversation about digital chat all right we've got digital assets they're run like financial regulation what would digital channel if my five-year-old draws something you know not that i have a five-year-old but if i had a five-stroke and they draw something in crayon and i take a picture of that and turn it into an nft how did this thing magically become something that is regulated by a financial regulator makes the sets that verification that you're talking about i mean it's exactly this thing it's like can we have digital chat or is everything a financial instrument um i'm conscious of time and i'm conscious if you've got a couple more topics to cover and uh we've gone slightly over time but uh i was wondering uh when i teach did you have any concluding thoughts on what what you had covered uh just now and then we can come back to some to to the stop to to all of these topics in the q and a i i've got nothing i'll give uh parting words to vinay because he actually knows what he's talking about um well actually out there doing it uh i mean on this stuff you know the one that we're all walking on this is like if we replicate too much of the existing financial system we're going to wind up with this national Balkanization oh people in you know lebanon or you know syria cannot use any of these systems and we wind up with something which will gradually become as encumbered as what we've got right now um whereas what we kind of need is globalization of finance so that we've got globalization of liquidity which might protect us from future financial collapses and i think that there's a good kind of world peace argument to be made that if you have a genuinely global trading environment or anybody can pay anybody and you can transfer goods across borders smoothly and easily i think in the long run it's an investment in world peace because where you have these balkanizations of uh trade and balkanizations into different regions for payments eventually those fault lines become increasingly cultural and political and people begin to arm and you know you kind of get the traditional european meltdown and we need a global financial regulation because this is also how we get things like climate finance sorted out so you know at the same time as we have to comply with the law the long-term vision i think ought to be towards a kind of one planet market specifically because of the dividends in

[1:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=3600s) terms of both world peace and climate regulation thank you very much uh thank you teach thank you veneer i've got a couple more topics to cover but i propose we take a five minute break comfort break so folks can go and get a drink a cup of tea or glass of water and then we come back here in five minutes and move on to the next topic fabulous i hope you're all enjoying the event and thank you very much for your questions and thank you to all the panelists we've talked to so far teach thank you again for coming thank you very much guys it was an absolute pleasure look forward to the next one thank you teach um i hope everybody had a good break uh and according to the schedule uh we are going to discuss art and collectibles next now in Mattereum we have this concept of of the four million dollar quartet of uh asset classes where assets uh can be valued at one million dollars or more um and uh one of these asset classes uh clearly is art and collectibles where you know you get you get artworks and other items which which can be valued at over a million dollars uh so uh we are very fortunate to have a wonderful panel here uh we've got uh marina from artstead we've got griff from 4k and we've got ian simmons from Mattereum so i'm going to start as with the previous panel each one of our panelists to spend about a minute or so telling us about themselves their background and their work and then we will move into the discussion if that's okay with everybody so perhaps we can start with marina hey everyone and great panel so far i really enjoyed the previous speakers my name is marina i represent artsa.com and we are an online marketplace that initially was envisioned as a web 2 company and still is in a way left 2 company where artists from all over the world could sell buy trade original unique artwork and just recently um as of january this year we've moved into web 3 by adopting some of the nft features and offering this technology to our user

[1:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=3750s) base which we like to call the real real artists since they have come from a traditional background with work working with traditional media and having that kind of track record which many digital artists or digitally native artists may not have so that is our unique take on on the nfts and i'm really excited to share some of the visions and learn about you guys's progress and innovation thank you very much marina uh griff could you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you're working on hey everyone thank you so much anton for introducing us all and for putting on this event it's been truly a fascinating panel so far and glad to have so many great speakers here and to play a small part in it so i lead business development at 4k.com and 4k really started as the first physically backed marketplace to really interchange with luxury assets whether watches cassacious coins in a web three native way just using your meta mask and what really rings true um that came up in the earlier conversations is to what extent is this centralized how do you really grade a physical asset and bring that on chain and what 4k has done so far is we have ensured physical and vaulted custody of these real world assets however what the protocol is building in the future is really the infrastructure to support other brands guardians and different types of people who want to interact with physically backed nfts launch them and bring them on chains so what we're thinking about is items like storage fees and how to really bridge these worlds together in addition to kind of having the marketplace uh be that primary feature set that you can always redeem and get the physical asset at any time thank you very much griff uh and now we come to ian simmons uh ian please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about uh your own work with Mattereum oh yes um i'm ian simmons and i'm one of the ontology team at Mattereum uh the ontology team is the people who do the key part of the process of documenting the assets and creating the uh asset passports that bring together the warranties and the um the detailed uh description

[1:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=3900s) of the um thing that we're putting on the chain and connects them to the nft my background is as a museum curator so um i've got lots of experience in uh examining and documenting historic objects and that's what i i'm bringing to bear on the asset passports for Mattereum along with my other colleagues in the department who are all either museum curators or archivists uh thank you very much and so we already have uh a question in the in the chat but perhaps i can start by asking a question as well uh so we've been talking about uh bridging the the divide between physical and digital so my question to all panelists is what are some of the bigger challenges in bridging this divide from perhaps from your own perspective marina perhaps we can start with you yeah that is a great question well i see two main challenges that we've personally encountered as a company first of all being as i mentioned onboarding the users that have not come in contact with the blockchain technology or nft tools before and educating the community to make use of this new technology incorporating it in their practice um that was a challenge however we received great feedback and it was very yeah a very productive uh a flow to follow uh to follow with and the second challenge that um we've encountered was that of uh bringing the digitally native um artwork in form of nfts to uh be exhibited in in physical settings in real world so of course if nfts are meant to exist on digital ledgers and on cloud and internet as ipf files however it's the community that sort of enables um the fruition and

[1:07:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=4050s) brings about a different type of utility so exhibiting um the actual there's a work and finding new ways to do it in an ever more engaging way and in the ways that that makes sense for both the creator and the observer that has been a great challenge that we're we still don't have a definite answer to and it's all work in progress uh thank you marina uh griff uh same question to you uh what do you see as the bigger challenges in bridging the the physical and the digital yeah it's a great question i definitely resonate with everything marina said i'll just kind of expand from 4k in my personal perspective what i've seen from working in the space there's really two areas i'd highlight the first is the crypto native divide with other brands web to the traditional world which is that of course you have to build your protocol to certain standards whether that's metadata for the nfts whether it's regulation whether it's which blockchain you're building on and whether it's the onboarding process and education or kind of a mismatch in what the technology can do today and what brands and other people are trying to do with real world assets on chain because it's such a holy grail for blockchain and people are so excited by it but there's really the baby steps of what you need to do to kind of have a cohesive strategy and start experimenting with bridging the two worlds and that's kind of what we find is one of the continual challenges and also exciting aspects of working in the space and then to kind of echo and piggyback on some of the earlier discussion that regulatory uncertainty as well especially internationally whether it's sanctions if you're building a web 3 protocol but have to geofence it for certain areas that requires a ton of compliance time when you're a startup and that isn't really the the main focus but you have to make sure you're building it to be capable of that thank you very much and ian i know you've obviously been working hands-on on bridging the physical and the digital uh what have some of the challenges been or what are some of the challenges from your perspective on that i think that uh the ones i've come across uh key one is um getting the um client whose uh um asset we're documenting to understand the granular level of the information

[1:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=4200s) that we need to capture in order to embody the um asset that they're talking about in the um in the asset possible because it really needs to be uh really clear so that um it cannot be mistaken for any other asset and the the other challenge that um there is is uh for sort of things like artworks um and the variety of historic objects and uh related things that we've we've brought on board is that each one is bespoke um unfortunately with the ontology team the asset passports can be um adapted and worked on in concert with the owners of the assets to create the bespoke asset passport um which enables us to truly express the uh the nature of the object and to connect it to appropriate warranties so that um uh when we're uh when when they've got the connect to the nft and it's on the chain um that the uh the right things are expressed through those um to enable uh the warranties to function um in in in the way that they should and we work very closely with clients to make that make that happen um but it's always it's always a challenge to actually get the focus right and bring all those things together thank you very much ian so we have a question from the floor which has been put into the q a uh box and it's a question from uh joe mangram and the question is as an artist i am curious how the process would work for unsold artworks in my possession in the studio the ability in the studio the ability to continue exhibitions until the artwork is sold how transfers would then proceed if someone purchased the nft so um i guess uh we can we can do it we can do this in reverse order uh if griff perhaps we can we can start with you uh do you have any views or comments on joe's question i think that's an amazing question and i'd start off by saying i think there's a couple different philosophical frameworks that everyone even the panelists here are kind of

[1:12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=4350s) starting in terms of how that physically backed nft is really going to interact with the real world and how it will enable artists and physical art that might be different than wine collectibles for instance which you need provenance and proof of custody throughout the time period to really ensure its value so one thing i think about for artists and galleries specifically is how nfts enable a new form of ownership and lending where say i have this artwork in which is um a rain and petabond that's on my wall could i actually display it at a gallery have the nft of that and really do i get more of a um admiration for having that in the gallery at a certain time and redeeming the nft to then get the physical artwork back that's kind of the philosophy of how 4k has built out our protocol initially is that you won't be having the nft as well as the physical artwork or physical item at the same time and there's a firm mechanism involved however i think a lot of different um i think there's just different approaches to how you can consider that based on the target market and audience for that specific item and artists are just being enabled in a couple new innovative ways through nfts which is the really exciting part underlying it all thank you very much griff uh ian we come to you again so this is this is very much a you know a question about the philosophy of how you how you approach uh this idea of of ownership while still displaying artwork so whilst the artworks are still in the artist's possession i mean there's two ways that uh through the Mattereum system that uh um things can be traded as nfts when um from original artworks uh there's the way that it can be done by asset passporting it vaulting the artwork and selling the nft um uh as an nft and the artwork stays in the same place um and the other way is to have unique identifiers um uh in terms of tags or scans of the uh thing which uh give it uh its immutable identity uh that they become part of the asset passport that is then

[1:15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=4500s) goes with the object um wherever it's sold so if it's physically there you've got the details on the asset passport um that can be used to completely verify its existence and one of the great advantages of this is that if you start in the artist's studio and go forward you have the provenance on the blockchain all the way through so everything about the thing is there every time it's sold throughout its entire existence so that there's absolutely no needs for galleries purchases and so on to have to trek back through the provenance and prove it for themselves again because it's there and backed by warranties um that uh have financial consequences if they are in error thank you very much ian and again the same question to marina yeah i've been actually very puzzled with this question and um it's one of the questions that i get quite a lot especially from the artists that are just minting their first nfts their first digital works um well yeah i agree with the with the other panelists that there's uh two ways on how to approach it it's either you digitalize the physical work and make an nft copy of it and both one of them coexist in a in a synergy or you either if either one of them is sold and damien hurst kind of illustrated um in a very um in a very nice way last year by creating this collection of works that if one of them was to be kept then it's either the digital or physical version was to be destroyed or burned um so it's either you go with that or as ian mentioned you go the the way of tagging the original physical piece with something that then marks it um and that then bridges it to the token and you sort of um have the token represent the physical original but either way you choose uh to go with i think they're they're both uh great applications of this technology and it only depends on your on your work on what you uh what i want to achieve with your studio practice and on your general vision as an artist

[1:17:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=4650s) thank you very much marina uh so i think uh that so that was that was a really good question i think that that concludes this panel on this specific on this specific subject but please i hope all the panelists will stick around for the wider q and a and for the networking event and i'm conscious that we have one more topic to cover uh of these million dollar plus asset sub asset classes and that is a real estate and uh we have uh for the next uh panel for the next conversation we have anthony bell uh from trust me blockchain and we've got Vinay gupta ceo and founder of Mattereum uh we did have another panelist but unfortunately he has dropped off who is working on a on a on a piece of real estate specifically in in england but perhaps Vinay can vinican can touch on on network so uh again as before uh perhaps uh two panelists can uh introduce themselves i know Vinay has already previously introduced himself uh but uh perhaps repeat some introduction and tell us a little bit about what what were they working on in the space uh in the space of real estate and or implications for real estate so anthony perhaps you could start yeah thanks anton uh Vinay good to catch up with you again enjoyed the previous speakers good fun um yeah so i'm ceo of i'm the ceo one of the founders of uh the tpx property exchanges and we've been working since uh early 17 with the fca bank of england uh treasury uh hmlr hmrc bank of canada a little bit more recently to create property titles as a liquid tradable asset class on public regulated exchanges and so we're working very hard on that Vinay gave me some good pointers in the early years about adjudication on the chain um and to make sure that we've got an institutional grade uh asset that the institutions can buy and sell uh on on the the chains that we've created for this um so we've been doing this for about five years um we're about to launch the first of 20 exchanges uh in london over the next uh few few months and weeks weeks and months now uh days it feels like um so it's certainly gathering a pace and we have launch teams set up in a number of different cities to launch their exchanges so we should be after we launched london uh we should be announcing a new exchange every six to eight weeks or so that's amazing that's fine amazing indeed uh thank you very much

[1:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=4800s) would you like to reintroduce yourself and say a little bit about what Mattereum is doing in the real estate space sure so Vinay gupta ceo Mattereum um uh this is our fifth year of operations and we are just in the middle of doing the first of the real estate transactions uh lots and lots and lots of interesting um sort of problems to solve during real estate as i'm sure you found um and what we are basically focused on for real estate is less the title transfer we think title transfer is something that's going to have to be done jurisdiction by jurisdiction and we can set it up for jurisdictions we know how to do it we think the large and hairy problem is actually condition reporting for the real estate because the incentives in the blockchain space because the payments are being made in crypto and they're generally non-repudiatable is for people to attempt real estate fraud where they will worry about things like the building has driver list the assets for sale and then run off with the crypto through it through a washer and then they're at the other side a mixer so for us the focus is very much been on like how do you get the liability framework around each piece of real estate to be as close to airtight as possible so that when somebody buys a piece of real estate using whatever the underlying rail is to actually arrange the transfer of title the real estate that they receive is exactly what they were expecting to receive or their recoverable assets that can be seized to back up the gap left for remediation yeah and this this is a fascinating subject which i'm sure Vinay you and i could spend weeks discussing um as we did yeah oh yeah um we took a a top-down regulated approach to it from day one um so so um the way that we were working to do this uh and this this is useful um was to mirror exact uh precisely mere existing workflow processes and practices um so if you want to work with the system and enable it um you shouldn't try to change the rules by which it operates you'd look to concede to enhance those rules um and so from our point of view we very much focused on on the search the survey how do you list a property on a public regulated exchange how do you make sure you have verification validation how do you make sure the usual suspects don't get up to the usual things because i haven't yet met someone who wants to sell a property didn't want to enhance its value in one form or another by uh misrepresenting it in any way that they

[1:22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=4950s) possibly can so there are aspects of this which you have to be very very aware of property is also a different asset it has aspects of geolocation associated with so when you've created a digital asset of a property and you have that on a public exchange well it will come as no great surprise to many that your neighbors will try to talk up or bid up your price because it will directly affect their own properties in in common parlance in exchange language that's called front running and like any public regulated exchange is not allowed so inevitably you can see already if you compare some of the practices that the crypto trading environment uses and try to visit that on the types of exchange that we're looking at which is an asset based exchange um then then you you have a different policing function and some of these policing functions have to be new because they're not as much of a feature on an equity exchange as they are in a property exchange the surveillance package is different uh the oversight is different the the geolocation as a fundamental requirement is different so all of these come into play but our fundamental mission is exactly the same as vinnies and that is to make property a liquid tradable asset class for all um and we take a very strong view and we're we're largely macroeconomic guys and we've taken a 200 year view on uh how property works within our economy uh but what's different about us is we have no hypothecation no bailment uh there are no liens or charges in any of our assets ever in the way that we've constructed them tell me more about that that's a real breakthrough well what's the real breakthrough is and and this will be uh quite a shock to many probably listening is we realize very quickly that the volumes that you achieve on an exchange are minuscule quite honestly in a crypto exchange um in the nature of the real world of of the volume marketplace yeah yeah we set out from day one to make sure that our units of asset as we created them using amms and uni swaps have real-time liquidity in in a real world environment our model is very much that you can take a property on say a one of our exchanges in singapore as an example and you can buy a cup of coffee in london at starbucks in real time without having to go uh and transfer that to the banks so millisecond sort of transfer and then transfer of title of asset um have that verified validated all stages in the process obviously utterly transparent so you have the payment rail and the title

[1:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4EtanpfGQ&t=5100s) rail on the same software platform yeah we're driving the utility value of the asset from our model it's this is is is in a high inflation environment property is uh um an inflation resistant asset finally oh yeah and you can see the net inflows going into the asset class at the moment and bill gates is now the us's biggest um uh property owner et cetera et cetera um blackstone i think it's worth noting this for the audience like i mean we didn't see a 12 u.s inflation rate since what the 1970s maybe you know um so there's never been a point where americans you know who are under 50 really have seen this situation where every year the stuff in your bank account is worth 10 percent less you just can't buy as much stuff for the same amount of money and so that tends to cause a fight out of caution into hard assets like real estate and gold um because otherwise you're just sitting there losing money very rapidly yes and we we again we're fundamentalists in many ways in this space so what we realized we worked with some of the central banks and some of the supervisory boards of central banks back in uh 16 and 17 and we started did some modeling around this and we looked at the fiscal and monetary tools that they were able to deploy in a high debt scenario and they were clear um their tools no longer effective um and and uh they they gave us i won't scare everybody on this uh call um some very very um uh finite timelines by which uh they thought uh the current system in its fiscal and monetary tools could continue to operate in the way that it does so we're at we're at a a transition point now this has happened too many times over the last 200 years this is not the first time you know our asset our our our fiat is being debased and people are reaching out and trying to find a a currency uh that they can trust um and many of the fiat currencies are currently failing this is perfect for us in the digital asset world because this is where naturally people will go if but only we as an industry can make sure that we have the processes the systems the oversight transparency governance um that that that's this is very much the stuff that tj was talking about uh you know um earlier on that you know maker's vision is very much like you just pile as much collateral into their system as possible and then issue money directly against it yeah but but issue the issue i have with that a little bit and uh as always being somewhat a rebel in this

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Continues in https://guptaoption.com/texts/594-3.md (part 3 of 4).
End of [594] Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Online Meet-Up 27 July 2022, part 2 of 4. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.