# The Second Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup 21 Sept 2022 (part 2 of 2)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [571], part 2 of 2. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2022-09-24 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Ecosystem around the contracting layer.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - West London City Lets land sale as an NFT (2022): Mattereum was tech partner on a UK land sale run as an NFT: a sea-front plot at Milford-on-Sea with a 1.9...
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
  - CoinDesk (2020): CoinDesk interview on an identity layer for physical things. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017.
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (31%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: NFT (46 here; 45 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); IPFS (6 here; 13 sources in all, earliest dated 2014); Guardian (6 here; 16 sources in all, earliest dated 2010); digital twin (5 here; 12 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); physical asset NFTs (2 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); physical asset NFT (2 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); real estate (15 here; 106 sources in all, earliest dated 2013, 2 undated); land registry (2 here; 6 sources in all, earliest dated 2018); Mattereum (14 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); tokenization (4 here; 39 sources in all, earliest dated 2014)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): SPV
- Importance: core-text score 0.20 (1.00 is the top), number 357 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [668] ['Mattereum Will Enable On Chain Real Estate Deals' (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/668.md): same career work: West London City Lets land sale as an NFT
  - [722] ["10 Years of Ethereum... Tokenization is here." ---- RWA... (2025)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/722.md): close in content (cosine 0.90)
- On the same works, just before: [670] [‘Mattereum and Reducing Fraud to Enable True Global Peer... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/670.md); [674] [‘Reputation Systems are ‘Prejudice as a Service’’ (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/674.md); [573] ['Digital Assets, Digital Chattel' (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/573.md)
- On the same works, just after: [569] [How Crypto Interacts With Real World Assets (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/569.md); [568] [The Third Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup, 30 Nov 2022 (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/568.md); [780] [Vinay Gupta and Ian Grigg Speak On Arbitration and... (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/780.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: The Second Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup 21 Sept 2022, video, 2022-09-24, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [571], https://guptaoption.com/texts/571.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 2 of 2
[42:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=2561s) and next up we have Leonard Kish uh from the cortex network uh and uh I believe uh Leonard does have a video uh in if we could get that video up first please cortex makes it simple to publish to a web that has crypto built into its core web addresses and crypto addresses become one and the same everything you create online using cortex is verifiably yours and becomes an address you own that can hold assets and Link them it is a wallet everything in it is yours that means every page can be a crowdfund or a place to send tokens including nfts you could create a gallery where nfts can have a home with a page to discuss them and tell their story cortex is also a Wiki so it's endlessly flexible allowing you to create flows and structures that suit your needs from managing projects a Blog Galleries and more plus creating a new page and posting it costs you almost nothing while each domain you claim is yours and also a tradable asset and with private channels you decide who has access to your content and with whom you exchange information now you truly own your relationships your content and your coin not some third party we are inviting everyone to come and easily build a new decentralized web and build your metaverse digital Kingdom cortex is our token which will power the cortex app the cortex token will be used for acquiring domains storage sending likes and tips through the platform exclusive nfts offers low-cost minting exclusive access to online events as well as premium features learn more and sign up for updates at crtx.app all right that was a very slick video thanks tell me what it is marketing you have some very very clever things there but I don't think they come across uh I get that I get the home level story yeah so I think tell me about the magic the way I introduced this is that you know we talk about web 3 but uh the web in essence is a Content distribution protocol right it's a HTTP um there really is no content distribution protocol right now for web3

[45:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=2711s) we've kind of built this layer on top and you know we have metamask that can interact with the blockchain but there is no kind of uh way that um blockchain and crypto addresses are built into the core of the web so what cortex does is a couple of uh big kind of crypto advances that we were implementing right now and beta are uh a way for you to publish uh and you know we'll have a page up for you know anybody like your grandma could publish a web page that is to her nft domain and creates a namespace meaning that you know much like the web today you'll have uh you know say you have vinay.hmn.human um and you have a birthday party so you have vinay.hmn uh slash birthday party that becomes a page that you can post anything to publish to um very much like the web today um it's human readable but then each page also has a crypto address associated with it so it becomes a way to kind of uh build relationships and tokenization uh into content at a very very deep level and be able to scale it so this is all your diable equivalent stuff about derivative key generation and all the rest of that right there's some actual you know deep cryptographic magic to enable this kind of distributed permissioned thing where I could give you a cryptographic key though it is but and at the end of the day what that enables though is kind of an open network to enable a lot of the uh use cases we've talked about today already like the proof of experience so essentially you know if I um you know you have this vinay.hmn domain you can mint subdomains because they're full nfts that become you know part of you know some event or some place that you've been that you could share with people that uh that you were there with um but then they can also start publishing to those sub domains so it becomes kind of like yeah very endless ways that just about anybody can start using this kind of a platform um because you know now there's an information space that you can publish to and send tokens to and distribute tokens from so kind of different from ipfs

[47:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=2861s) in the you've got a different kind of permissioning and you can actually do things like attach tokens documents but kind of like ipfs and it's not smart contract it's actually like media content something like that yeah so it can really be any kind of account you can really publish any kind of content that you could publish to a GitHub repository um so you know uh eventually it'll be videos and uh MP4s uh you know just about just about anything that you'd want to as well as complete websites um and so it is ipfs on the back end but what we're doing is building a namespace around that so that you know it looks a lot like the web does today um but because every big equivalent ipfs kind of becomes like the equivalent of S3 it's the deep underground back-end storage that powers the cortex web that's right yeah that's right and so uh so everything that you publish has a crypto address uh so it is a wallet address um and it's also a place that other people because everybody now has a an identity anybody can comment on that page and create pages about it so essentially the namespaces is built around three things your key a topic and the topic could be just about anything including your your website or your company or or anything um and then you know a privacy channel so that you can decide what's public and what's private within that namespace and then this kind of generates the derivative keys so this stuff isn't like a permissioning layer on the website this is actually hardcore cryptographic management of reading and writing capability exactly and uh as as we've talked about we've even have photographic content management system for the distributed web like oh we could use one of those yeah and in fact uh we've built in uh uh BLS signatures on the back which uh what that means is now you can have group features so uh one of the use cases we've talked about with Mattereum is you know you want to publish a site that has you know seven out of ten signers have approved this message essentially um and so we'll be able to enable those kinds of things pretty quickly gotcha I mean so this is really an amazing capability because you know for a long time you know web3 has been waiting for the kind of killer out the Breakthrough the social media thing the

[50:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3011s) blog thing the music thing the thing about half yeah a bajillion users and frankly it's just too God damn hard to use you know Mattereum application of complex data you know web pages legal contracts images for evidence high-res kinds of documents you know proofs things are being signed all of this kind of stuff and you know the systems that we're using for publishing that stuff are grindy and mandrel like because at the end of the day it's all going to go into ipfs and ipfs has a uh pretty limited set of fundamental Primitives yep um and the alternative is you then try and manage a lot of the permissions inside of your smart contracts but then you have to write a permissioning system into every single smart contract with all the associated possibilities of screwing the thing up and so on right it's quite an attractive thing for Mattereum because there's a real publication layer and we can then just do stuff with it with all the benefits of web3 I always say um web 3 is not I don't know if it will have social applications as much as it will be it'll have social networks and uh value exchange networks built in at the ground layer is what we're working on so literally because you you have an identity you can publish anything you want about another page and that becomes part of the immutable history as well so it works really well for um again a lot of the use cases we've talked today about today like you want to model a physical space because you have a namespace that makes sense now that you can publish this information to and everything in it has a key that can hold tokens um there's a lot you can do with modeling the real world yeah on a framework like this Leonard thank you very much I'm afraid we're at the end of this time slot but and I can see a question for Leonard in the Q a perhaps we can pick that up when we we move across to the to the after party and with the opportunities to interact with Leonard and duskin questions uh a little bit later thank you very very much Ian could we get the next slide up please

[52:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3140s) all right next up uh we're very happy to have uh with us Andrew Harrison uh from 4K uh they are working with physical asset nfts and Andrew is going to say a few words about his work before vinay asks him a few questions Andrew over to you hey everybody thank you for having me uh vinay it is a pleasure to meet you uh I've been following your work for a while and I'm a big fan so I hope you had a friend at Burning Man this year I usually go but unfortunately it was um forced to miss it due to uh some unforeseen circumstances this year but um yeah glad that uh you sets up and got everybody together so um I'm going to go ahead and give you um a little bit of an overview on 4K protocol and what it is we're doing and uh what we hope to accomplish in this space so fourth protocol is essentially a decentralized solution for tokenizing physical assets we allow anyone anywhere to Mint anything as a physically backed nft um which can then act as a brand new primitive for web3 so you can really think of 4K as offering physically backed nfts as a service so we work with Brands creators collectors and existing marketplaces to tow business Collections and bring physical assets onto the blockchain so um you guys are probably all pretty familiar with the challenges of Bridging the physical to the digital world um historically you know creating a digital twin of a physical object has been a very very difficult problem to solve uh the core issue is really around ensuring that there's always a one-to-one relationship between the nft and the physical asset that it represents so for example somebody has an nft that represents a physical painting for example but then sells the painting without transferring the nft there can then be two owners of the same asset uh the owner of the nft and then this is the owner of the painting and then the opposite of that can also be true right so the holder of the uh nft might sell the nft but never necessarily transfer the painting so there's not this inherent accountability to transfer uh the physical item along with the digital one so 4K protocol solved this we've figured out all of the accountability all of the accountability issues related to uh the

[54:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3290s) incentive structure uh in in that is related to maintaining both the digital copy um a physical asset as well as the physical asset um together as one uh unit so our solution is to coordinate a decentralized network of what we call Storage Guardians and a storage Guardian is an entity or a specialized asset class storage facility that can intake store and protect physical assets that are sent in by users of 4K protocol so the process is pretty simple if you wanted an asset you create a minting request on our website you send your items in and a guardian woman's the items as nfts once they receive them so once the items are minted uh the nft is sent to the user's wallet to do whatever they want with it they can trade it they can leverage it in DeFi applications or they can redeem the nft for the physical asset at any time Guardians are incentivized to be good actors throughout all of this and properly watch over assets uh via a very in-depth token staking mechanisms that affect their ultimate payouts for protecting these assets as well as regular audits to ensure that these items are protected and saved we also offer on-chain loss and damage protection it's all on chain and users are able to view things like Guardian prices facility details and loss damage rates for each of the Guardians before selecting which ones to use to store their items which essentially creates this bidding system for the quality of protection and inherently leads to a decentralized network of storage facilities that uh 4K operates with to keep this a very crypto native and um uh decentralized solution so another cool thing is that anybody can really be a guardian as long as you have a dedicated storage facility so if you are an existing Marketplace for collectible items or you know even if you are a Vineyard that has a collection of of wine that uh you are holding you can actually apply to the 4K guardian and manage uh whatever that specialized asset classes uh and be compensated for the work that you're doing

[57:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3440s) um uh through the meeting in in uh protection process so um this opens up a lot of new use cases we're doing some really interesting things with uh decent centralized finance and uh tokenized merchandise so we recently partnered with arcade.xyz which is the lending protocol to take a loan out against a Rolex nft so we had a tokenized Rolex and uh we took it to their lending protocol and we were able to collateralize it and get a loan against it um so you can imagine if you have a set of Collectibles that are sitting around made in your closet just collecting dust instead of just leaving it um to you know be a latent asset you can actually unlock liquidity from it using decentralized finance and 4K protocols so that's one really interesting use case I'm conscious of time and perhaps you may want to leave a couple of minutes for Vinay to be able to ask you some questions but please please conclude your second use case yes of course so the Second Use case use case organized merchandise we also recently partnered with um uh did a project with g-money who is a very prominent nft influencer in the space and um he has a fashion line that he has uh introducing and he he leaned on 4K to help tokenize these luxury t-shirts which um are going to be um leveraged in one of our Guardian vaults and then anybody who buys one of these nfts can then redeem that asset for the physical shirt at any time so 4K really just wants to be the foundation for a lot of these projects uh we hope to be a foundational piece of this web3 ecosystem and uh if all goes according to plan we'll be able to power the infrastructure for a lot of these projects that you guys are bringing up and uh handle all the heavy lifting so that you can focus on building the things that matter fantastic so tell me a bit about like how you see an nft like you know different people use nfts mean different things like an nft he might be an intellectual property license or it might be you know kind of Warehouse receipt something like that give me a sense of like what a 4K nft is when I buy it what rights do I get what capabilities do I inherit give me a sense how that works sure yeah that's a really good question um I think a warehouse receipt is probably um it's number one functionality in terms of you know if you have this nft you can trade it in for the physical item at any time but there's also a lot of utility that is inherently baked into

[59:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3590s) these 4K nfts so uh the fact that you can take it and then you know understand provenance and see price history as uh these things are being traded on the secondary Market is really interesting and opens up a lot of uh new use cases for decentralized finance that uh we probably haven't even thought of yet so the fact that this is a composable web 3 primitive is going to unlock a lot of doors and uh we hope to partner with a lot of developers down the road to really make the most of this and see what they come up with and you know in this kind of context you know I I feel like there's a there's a language guy you know like you know everybody that's using physical nfts like even the industry hasn't really settled in a term physical nfts fidget tools there's some talk about digital twins you know what I'm saying right this terminology guy yeah um a book by a guy called Bruce Sterling called um shaping things it's about 15 years old I'm not familiar with that now so Bruce says this term spine right and for him a spine is a physical object with a digital twin where every iteration of the physical object like the Gen 3 the Gen 4 the Gen 5 basically pull in all the information about how the things have been used in the real world and then that goes back into the design process from the next version of it um I kind of feel like this thing of the terminology Gap and the the understanding of like how is this stuff really going to tie together in future it's one of the biggest hurdles that we face as an industry is getting it across the people like yes it's a warehouse street but it's a warehouse you see you know tied to a digital twin tied to an insurance policy tied to a physical Vault time to a repair policy you know tied to a maintenance log um you know how what do you think is going to have to happen before we can get over that language barrier and people will just know what it is that we're all doing here you know how do we get over that bridge yeah that is a very interesting question and uh I think you know as the industry takes shape I think that the solution will start to emerge I don't think any one party is going to be able to come out with um what you know the final lay of the land is going to look like in terms of how people view these types of nfts and this whole digital movement um I will go on record on as saying uh I am not a fan of the word digital and I've had a lot of conversations

[1:02:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3740s) refused to use the word because at all it's going to stick like no Foods at all yeah I think many of us are a bit amused by that term yeah that's digital allergy Society yeah so um I I like this idea of the spine I'll have to look into that um I think you know just having more and more conversations and letting people understand the use cases and what they can come to expect from uh the utility of these things is really you know the next step and once they realize that this is better than the status quo then um hopefully people will start to understand the value and move over the G money project is super cool congratulations about we had some conversations with g money for a while uh you know that phrase of his like everything in the world which isn't currency is an nft was one of our like real kind of um uh what do you call this thing it's not one posts um white houses you know it was just this stuff like yeah that that's what you mean yeah yeah we're very excited about it so thank you um for your support there and um yeah great to meet you brilliant uh thank you very much Andrew and and I can see that there is a question for Andrew in the Q a but we must we must move on with the program and Alex uh you will be able to ask Andrew that question uh in uh during the after party during the breakout session so please do keep that question fresh and you will be able to ask it thank you very much uh Andrew Ian could we have the next slide please

[1:03:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3828s) all right uh so now our concluding speaker in this part of the program is uh Dr John Ennis uh from neosworp uh marketplaces of course are a hugely important part of the ecosystem and uh we're looking forward to hearing a little bit about the work that John is doing in that area could we play the video please welcome to Neo swap I'll join a Live party now and do a speed run to show you the steps so you can see there are three people in here already we have a chat function down the side as we found these parties to be very social and a lot of fun things happen here I can see these three people have already listed their nfts so I will select some of mine now from my wallet and list them we're an all-sided Marketplace making multi-way multi-item and aft swaps possible for the first time ever I'll be listing these below the floor price as they aren't very liquid at the floor price anyway once that is done I will click save and we'll proceed to the bidding stage now we're at the bidding stage the first thing I'll do is set a budget this is like a supplementary account which acts as a Top-Up to help get more trades the important thing to remember here is I cannot overspend so I can select as many nfts as I'd like here I can see all the nfts everyone has listed here and I'll select the ones that I like while I'm doing this we do have a live bidding function which adds a bit of fun and competitiveness to the parties green means I have the highest bid orange means I'm tied and red means I'm losing this doesn't necessarily mean that I will win the nft but the bids do inform our algorithm finally I'll click save and if everyone else is done our solver will run and propose a trade shouldn't take more than a few seconds there we go so I gave up nearly 17 Stacks those four nfts and I got four nfts I wanted good trade and now we have a gif which shows the trade overall from everyone's perspective the next thing is the Smart contract will be deployed and all parties will sign and the trade will be executed you can see that this isn't peer-to-peer swapping different people are giving up different things and that unlocks trades you wouldn't be able to find otherwise so that's a quick demo of Neo swap we run parties which are essentially a pop-up Market allowing up to 20 people at a time to come and swap with each other we're live on Stack's blockchain and we have them for the past four months and we're building on Solana as we speak if you're interested in learning more don't hesitate to reach out you can find us at neoswap underscore AI on Twitter

[1:06:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=3978s) alrighty all right um so this will be fun yeah that's not my voice that's Kieran Parker moroney who I think is in attendance so he did a great job with that video just want to give him credit yeah I finally caught up with Kieran about uh this blog post so um yeah that is that's in progress um so um should we do this gentle warm-up or should we get straight to the bond villainy well you're in charge so go ahead okay let's well let's get straight from Bob Valerie it's been a very good session so far let's have a little fun so um what you are proposing is the invention of a kind of fundamentally New Economic primitive uh on the same general order as say the invention of the auction right yeah or even the invention of money I mean it'd be like right Adventure money and vegetable auctions it's a it's a sort of fundamental High complexity economic mechanism that is only really implementable when you've got you know secure transfer of value on digital Network to a bunch of computational horsepower to do the trade match okay yes that's right yeah so this is super deep into sci-fi territory right I mean it's like going all the way down through the sack of civilization getting right down to the base layer and saying right we're going to change the way that people buy and sell stuff in a way that fundamentally shifts things like how price Discovery happens something like that yeah that's right where you just have a general notion of utility that's inside people that yeah absolutely so first question how the hell did you get there okay this is not a regular thing that people just kind of stumble across to you know one afternoon I was reading because I had my idea like what was your trajectory to get to you know hacking on civilization at this Ultra deep layer right okay well a few things I mean one I have to give credit to my father who is a strange person but a very helpful person in a lot of ways when I was a child starting at when I was 12 at Christmas my father wanted to know if he gave out all the Christmas presents at random so they would go shopping for other Christmas presents for the kids I had three brothers and sisters give them out at random and my dad wanted to know if everybody traded one-on-one would the presents go where they were supposed to go and the answer actually sadly is no they don't and so you end up with unhappy kids but it got me really interested in the problem if you have a group of people and you bring them together what are the best multi-way

[1:08:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=4128s) trades in the group and it turns out when you introduced a little bit of currency not a lot but enough because what happens is you don't necessarily have equal matches of utility you start moving things around and even if a trade is maybe good for me it might be better for you today but if we can introduce a little bit of money we can make it so the trades are equally good for everybody okay so that's kind of unlocks new value um so I started working on that you know even as a child there was one Christmas where I proposed a three-way trade with my brother and sister and I got kind of interested in it um but I didn't have the skills to solve it so as I grew up you know I got my PhD in math I did my postdoc in computational neuroscience and I was always kind of working on this in 2017 I came up with the first version of first efficient algorithm that I've written for solving this it turns out other people have worked on similar problems um and I started to try to use it in the real world it just turns out way too complicated I mean if I can show here on my background here's a 20 person trade this is a real a real trade that happened in one of our rooms so this is a 20 person trade simultaneous trade that's good for 20 people at the same time okay and this happened and everybody signed the contract and this is it this might be the first simultaneous 20-person trade in human history that actually happened where everybody um the ownership got reassigned the thing is if you're trying to do that in real life very very it's a wrong place to start maybe eventually once I mean I actually like the word digital so I'm going to hang on to it for now until somebody gives me a better role but um Heretics but um you know maybe eventually we can get there and that is the hope that is kind of the dream with internet of things and sensors and drone delivery and all the other technology that's coming I think we can't actually get there but we will be able to get you there you know I'm like this time next year we'll be doing this for you know like probably real estate yes I think you're underestimating how fast this can run if the items are in your Vault for sure if you've got to do all these handoffs and it gets I mean us 4K like anybody that's got their self up to a secure level of management you can take 4K nfts Mattereum nfts anybody whose stuff hits your threshold for search due to delivery that's right you know it you know it is assault one vendor solution it's like everybody that has digital stuck and pilot into these machines yes and that's actually where the work you've done on the legal side that your team has done is so important because there has been this missing link between blockchain ownership and legally recognized ownership and that's why I think it I mean I'm a big fan of a lot of your work and that's one thing I think has been really important underestimated how important that is actually I think so um anyway with this like new form of Commerce like so so we thought about doing it in physical world we thought about doing it in web tube it's very hard to innovate inside

[1:11:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=4278s) somebody else's ecosystem plus you have to have right control over the database there's a lot of reasons why web 2 is is a hard place to start with this too but in web three everybody owns their nfts they can come together and you can find these trades that are good for everyone okay and then the best thing is you get all this data on people so that means you can use it to start to predict trades involving items that people haven't seen before we have people that have been to hundreds of our events we call them parties we're learning a lot about them and now we're proposing trades outside of the parties I think last last week we've got 14 AI proposed trades so we see a future where it's really fully liquid all these assets that have historically been illick will become liquid and they'll start to move around and like the big big vision is that you've got sensors on physical items in your house and after a while you know there'll be a sensor that's indicating this book hasn't been open in six months maybe it should have nominated for a trade and then you'll start to propose trades maybe together with your browsing history or whatever that you've been looking for one thing online you haven't used a piano in six months maybe you'd rather have a jet ski and so stuff can start to move around and it'll be way more sustainable and I think beneath this is one of the reasons why I think you and I've been on the same page there's a huge amount of waste I mean I think there's a lot of talk about carbon dioxide but that's not the only problem we have like the oceans are there's all sorts of plastic in the oceans from all the there's all sorts of issues that deforestation I mean fast fashion alone is something like five percent Global Environmental footprint oh is that right oh it's insane because you know it's only made a polyester and they speculatively manufacture a bunch of stuff they can't sell and then it goes straight into Longfield yeah it's like 70 to 80 ways to go to landfills I mean it's amazing I missed the word high fashion depends between 70 and actually 85 percent goes to landfills so it's yeah another statistic half of items that are donated to thrift stores are never used again they either get thrown away or they get recycled which is really unofficial so we've been kicking around this term that we haven't started to use much in public so far um of spiral economy you know in circular economy you know the notion is you basically rip the thing down to raw materials melt the raw materials down and they're making a new one so every time you put something around the circuit you destroy a spiral of economy you make this stuff and it just keeps going around and around and around for different users and then when somebody makes a newer more amazing version but people that could afford it by the new version and the old version goes out to the next ring of people so it moves from say being recirculated America to be recirculated in Mexico because you'll be recirculated in Mexico to be

[1:13:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=4428s) recirculated in Honduras and the goods just get pushed further and further further out you know towards the villages where people are really poor and really need stuff and you know your 15 year old digital camera winds up in the hands of some school kid in uh you know like the you know outside edge of Honduras or Brazil or India and those kind of models you know it's not you're necessarily going to price all of that stuff and financialize all of that trade right you know you can imagine that when you get down to the Village level you're cautious extremely squares liquidity is extremely scary right yeah but saying Hey I want a camera the next time a camera is available and I'm going to give somebody like you know my bicycle and exchange you could imagine that you get into a position where people Express their wants and express what they're rid of and you get this very low level kind of subsistence clearing function for those goods right you know it's a rich person's game I agree and in those Villages if there's a phone even just a single phone so you can do one of these trades Village can come together with items that aren't being used in the village they can be rearranged and everyone goes home better off right so it's a situation where just bringing this capability into Village makes the village wealthier without having to inject currency into the village so yeah before we wrap up let's talk a little bit about real estate real estate Supply chains you know high-tech manufacturing jet engine spares all that kind of stuff right um the world is clearly economically in the process of going off a cliff likes of which hasn't seen a living memory right we all kind of have a sense of that um you need money to be able to conduct trade unless you've got efficient mechanisms for barter and if you've got efficient mechanisms for barter it reduces your cost of doing trade because you don't have to borrow money to pay somebody for the stuff that you want as a way of Bridging the finance and waiting for the stuff that you don't want to get taken off your hands you can get the stuff you do want if that makes sense yeah you know rather than using money to spam time you know I need to give somebody three million dollars to buy the thing you know and then I'm going to do that to do all of that stuff just clears the series of swaps um so talk to me a bit about the global macro implications of having this kind of you know efficient multi-party barter in an environment where liquidity is going to be at massive premium right right yeah a couple things I'd say first

[1:16:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=4578s) off we're searching for really the right name because while it does look like barter since we have currency involved this is I really think of it as the evolution of currency and we're going Beyond now currency because currency see is this indirect solution to the problem of mismatch now we have a direct solution and I think there is a situation where we're looking for the right sometimes people call it neo-barter but I think haven't quite nailed it on the name but yes these Direct Value to Value trades what they'll do is they'll allow Goods you'll have all these kind of goods in this that are in the supply chain Network that have a certain amount of value wherever they are they'll have more value elsewhere you'll have kind of AI discovering these trades you'll have things moving around and you'll need very little currency and as a result you have relatively inflation resistance supply chain because things will be moving directly but there's two benefits one it'll be inflation resistant because you'll have direct movement and the second is things don't have to go to a central location that right now you have so much inefficiency not just financially because you have to sell things in a centralized Market but physically oftentimes good to go to these redistribution hubs right where they have to get sent back out but if you know where things need to go and they can go directly then you have this not just decentralized but fully distributed Commerce so the the real the big vision of this especially when you start to get self-driving cars and self-driving boats and you've got all sorts of you know uh automated forms of Transport around the idea would be things can go from where they're not needed to wherever they are needed much more efficient Commerce much more efficient supply chain um that is inflation resistance as well so I mean that was a fundamental engine transformation you know if we could figure out how to get the ecological footprint stuff priced in appropriately um that begins to look like the outline of you know a kind of next version of the global economy yes because once you could price in carbon and other kind of environmental externalities and once you can do things like exclude Goods which have inappropriate labor conditions in their manufacturing and so on you know you sort of begin to say okay well it's it's much more Capital efficient it doesn't involve paying vast amount of interest to the banks it allows people to have stuff but not money to effectively get other stuff that they want it takes out so much of the friction it's for many of the middlemen in the economy I sort of look at that and it's like it's the first decent looking proposal I've seen for how cryptocurrency you know fundamentally outperforms the older systems because you know I used to say people look you know a blockchain you know when we say cryptocurrency it's Horseless Carriage right you know horses

[1:18:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WyNG8xN4M&t=4728s) Carriage cryptocurrency it's the same attempt to look at the new thing and give the new thing a name based on its similarities to the old thing even the new thing is vast and the old thing is kind of small and that notion that you have this kind of high order mathematical matching is the core function for all physical assets which are represented in the digital form you kind of see what I'm saying yeah it becomes a default in the same with any text which is stored a digital file is searchable any asset that has a digital twin immediately becomes exchangeable in a smart bar and Machinery that's right it's fully electricity and that I mean that is so many of the world's problems comes from not having that it kind of sounds like it does for a physical matter what Google did for search one of the biggest things I've ever seen so I think yeah I mean more power to you and we will start trying to get your physical assets to trade as fast as possible I think you've got several of the companies represented here tonight very enthusiastic about doing this thing so um yeah let's do it um and I'm sure there will be many questions uh for for John and for all of our other panelists when we move across to the to the breakout session uh John thank you very much uh thanks to all of our panelists uh so a couple of things uh this part of our Meetup is now concluding

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End of [571] The Second Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup 21 Sept 2022, part 2 of 2. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.
Read next: next on the same works, [569](https://guptaoption.com/texts/569.md) How Crypto Interacts With Real World Assets (2022); the most closely related, [668](https://guptaoption.com/texts/668.md) 'Mattereum Will Enable On Chain Real Estate Deals' (2022); his whole career in one file, https://guptaoption.com/story.md.