# The Third Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup, 30 Nov 2022 (part 1 of 3)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [568], part 1 of 3. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2022-12-07 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA. Text: automatic captions, partly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Ecosystem around the contracting layer.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
  - Half a Trillion Dollars a Year of Magic: Blockchain, AI, and the Future of the Built Environment (2026): Mattereum essay: combine AI with the blockchain into self-enforcing smart contracts and move real estate... (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - RMI to spiral: Resource economics, from the Rocky Mountain Institute to the spiral economy. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: tokenization (31 here; 39 sources in all, earliest dated 2014); SPV (8 here; 6 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); NFT (23 here; 45 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); real estate (41 here; 106 sources in all, earliest dated 2013, 2 undated); KYC (10 here; 27 sources in all, earliest dated 2015); physical asset NFT (3 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); metaverse (3 here; 7 sources in all, earliest dated 2021); digital securities (2 here; 3 sources in all, earliest dated 2022); Mattereum (21 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); real world assets (5 here; 24 sources in all, earliest dated 2017)
- The earliest dated source in this archive for (undated sources may be earlier): self-custody; digital securities
- Importance: core-text score 0.18 (1.00 is the top), number 379 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [722] ["10 Years of Ethereum... Tokenization is here." ---- RWA... (2025)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/722.md): close in content (cosine 0.92)
  - [507] [Product Information Markets (2025)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/507.md): close in content (cosine 0.89)
- On the same works, just before: [571] [The Second Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup 21 Sept 2022 (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/571.md); [569] [How Crypto Interacts With Real World Assets (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/569.md); [852] [At the Turning Point — How Crypto Interacts with Real... (2022)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/852.md)
- On the same works, just after: [780] [Vinay Gupta and Ian Grigg Speak On Arbitration and... (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/780.md); [567] [The Fourth Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup 8th Feb 2023 (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/567.md); [566] [Why Global Trade Will Inevitably Move To The Blockchain (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/566.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: The Third Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup, 30 Nov 2022, video, 2022-12-07, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [568], https://guptaoption.com/texts/568.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 1 of 3
[0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=0s) uh welcome everybody to uh the third Mattereum physical asset nft meet up um and today's uh today's topic is the physical asset uh web3 ecosystem uh with a particular Focus we're going to have a panel a little bit later focusing on real estate and how that relates to the ecosystem uh welcome everybody my name is Anton I'm the managing director at Mattereum and I will try to keep us to time today um uh this event is being recorded and it will be released on social media so uh by attending uh folks are agreeing to having their uh to to appearing to appearing industry recording and having that image appear there um during the conversations we're going to be having there will be the opportunity for the audience to interact uh you'll be able to post questions in the chat or in the Q a uh or afterwards after the formal part of the event concludes we're going to move across to a different Zoom which will be an open uh open Zoom uh where it'll be a kind of after party and folks will be able to speak with each other and uh interact with each other but during the event itself get done I call it Captain is going to be monitoring uh the chat and the Q a for questions and he'll be doing his best either to answer some of them or to refer them up to the panelists to the presenters to be able to answer and and I will do my best to ask as many of those as possible as we go through uh vinay is going to be uh the main interlocutor without guests and a leading um and facilitating the conversations um and I should also add uh that there is going to be a pope a proof of attendance protocol nft which folks will be though there's a limited number of them folks will be able to get there there will be a link posted at the end and one more thing we are going to have I think in the chat uh we're going to have a Google a Google

[2:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=150s) sheet made available so uh those audience members who are not speaking who are not on the stage who would like to share their details with everybody and would like to interact with others you'll be able to put your details into that Google sheet and uh people will be able to find it or be able to find who you are and they will be able to connect with you um so uh without uh further Ado let's move uh to our first Speaker who is uh Toby Lewis of a novel insights could we get Toby slider please um so Toby is a great friend of Mattereum and his company novum insights has been researching the web 3 space for a number of years uh Toby has uh a real kind of Eagle eye view of the entire ecosystem and of course the physical asset nft space is very much part of that ecosystem so yes so this is a real honor um to be able to uh be presenting on real world assets on the blockchain in front of vinay um who has done a huge amount to inform my thinking on the topic um so I'm Toby Lewis uh founder and CEO of novemen sites we're a research group that's been focused on the DeFi and crypto space for the last six seven years um also recently set up a fund called metallink Capital that that effectively we we've been investing um in in defying crypto strategies um looking looking for a sort of Diversified return um obviously real world assets I think are going to be a very very interesting asset in in the crypto landscape because they give possibility is for uncorrelated returns so um I know this is likely to be a very informed audience so some of the 101 slides at the beginning I'm just gonna skip through very quickly but but essentially um like it we're we're talking about the domain of tokenization um obviously you you've got currencies Financial assets Commodities are and real estate among those that that have been driving

[5:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=300s) forward tokenization um and and obviously you you've seen the the volatile fungible tokens stablecoins nfts as some of the outputs of that um and I think what what's super I think everyone um who who's dealt with vinay and dealt with Mattereum realizes that that the I guess the tokenization of the physical world is likely to be one of the more exciting elements of all that we've been building in blockchain and crypto and and I think um we're very very early days in that um so in terms of sort of a rough sort of number overviews of the tokenization market stablecoins now make up more than 100 billion dollars of the crypto Market showing how how new assets can come in um there's a feeling that uh the on-chain asset tokenization Market before this year was estimated at 2.3 billion and and I suspect has performed relatively well in this crisis just because of the nature of the assets having real value as opposed to some of the tokens and other sort of more speculative nfts that may fluctuate um and according to the bank State asset manager Straight Street um that um all financial markets will have to digitize their process and tokenize their assets to remain relevant so [Music] um um it's it's probably fair to say we're we're in a multi-trillion dollar opportunity um with the tokenization of real world assets and um I it's fair to say that Mattereum has a good claim to be at the center of that among among many other new Innovative projects um I mean that there's some ballpark numbers I I this is from my analyst I think it may be a bit low but but the feeling is the nft market will be doing eight billion dollars in Revenue by 2027. these are numbers from statista and and the Art Market has been fluctuating up and down so um in some ways sort of why tokenized

[7:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=450s) physical assets and it's it's always a challenge to say this sort of stuff in front of vinay and and the like because I'm sure you've come up with many other good reasons but but allowing for faster settlement new ways of monetizing valuable physical objects fractional ownership in the longer term although there there's obvious security risks that I've talked long and hard with Renee about um and at the end of the day I think one of the really exciting things of the crypto Market when it's working well um it's fair to say that now isn't that best time but um with FTX and other scandals um hitting the market but to us to to in in many different ways I think uh it it's fair to say that the token Market does bring more liquidity and and I think that that anyone who's dealt with people in the Art Market or the media or people some of the projects that are most fascinated by what Mattereum does and what other um intelligent groups trying to tackle the nft market do um there's huge sort of there's huge scope for creativity within the token Market um some of it's slightly unfounded and and the good reasons for that but but I think people have been very creative in what they think is possible on chain and groups like Mattereum are doing good stuff to make that real um that there's lots of other asset uh other groups beside uh obviously Mattereum who I'm sure we're going to be hearing a lot more about um there's the the likes of paxos which which worked on its Pax gold asset back token um and you um I know that Mattereum also has some work on that field you've got synthetics and it's work on digital Securities and the derivatives that it's creating um was an extremely hot project at the beginning of the um this year late last year um as is the nature of these things I think it's fluctuated but but has a lot of the developer Community we've got both some protocol doing a lot out here in London um looking at

[10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=600s) that sort of value in the metaverse and I mean you could add in decentraland and sandbox and a lot of the groups building in and around those kind of uh metaverse domains as other groups that you you might add to the list here um very interestingly I I helped advise um Night Dragon in their early days um and they've now managed to tokenize 140 million real estate in Greenwich um obviously Mattereum has done its own work on real estate as well I'm sure we'll hear about that later and then you've even got um uh if if any of you have been hunging out in the finance World um or even read books on finance um the well-known Barbarians at the gate KKR um have also got involved at tokenizing a healthcare strategic fund was securitized who are probably one of the better known security tokenization platforms and and uh here in London you you've obviously got the likes of our chats and many others um and and um as you can see here so our analysts tried to document some of the people out there like Mattereum multiple groups pushing on the gold angle um you've got the polymaths and the t-zeros and the these incredibly well-funded talk security tokenization groups that have been popping up um trying to tokenize Securities and and probably some of the most exciting Securities in there um include it are really um in the sort of real world asset space and I'm sure we're here from uh vinay and Anton and Co the very good reason for that I'd say from a financial perspective uh what what I guess is very interesting for us when we think about real world asset tokenization is is I I'm always on the lookout for assets that um are generally uncorrelated and likely to be uncorrelated to the crypto market so what I mean by that is effectively um sadly when when playing around with a

[12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=750s) lot of crypto it fluctuates with the play for Bitcoin and ethereum and and uh to a certain extent end up being Bitcoin and ethereum derivatives um I've had many chats with vinay on the subject um the good thing about real world assets is is clearly they should detach from some of that volatility although as we know in the early phases and crypto is a very young Market um some of that um volatility will happen in the short term even even to these assets despite them getting attached to gold or whatever just because of the nature of the market but I think what longer term a lot of these assets will trade in an uncorrelated way to The Wider crypto market and The Wider financial markets which in turn will will help investors and unlock new asset classes um you've obviously got some of the luminaries in the D5 place that have made uh moves in rwa as well so make a dow and are they working with centrifuge have have done experiments in this space I think we're super early in a lot of this stuff and materials one of the groups of the Forefront pushing this forward so super exciting generally um and then intriguingly our analysts kind of looked at um some of the front ends and and pulled up uh centrifuge as an example just I think for an example of how um different little um things are going to be put in a real world asset market so um intriguingly they they sort of have a broad real world asset Market silver real estate and then the gig economy and stuff like that and I think um you're going to get a lot of bespoke attempts to create uh new Assets in this field um but it's it's sort of really really early days and and and uh it'll be interesting to see how for example that tokenization of the gig economy pool or Harbor trade or whatever how they actually play out um and and obviously um I know I know that the Mattereum people and and I'm sure many of the folks here worry there may be some legal

[15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=900s) technicalities and difficulties in a lot of these things um but I'm gonna gonna stop there and and really open the floor to questions Thank You Toby I think avina has a couple of questions for you yeah so um I mean with the growth of space uh the fundamental question has to be why do this stuff tokenized rather than treating it on existing exchange infrastructure like Chicago world trade or something like that what do you think the advantages are tokenization you know at this kind of fundamental level yeah so I think there's just the first thing is I think there's huge um barriers to entry in those markets right like like the costs of putting something up in a um fully regulated area and and is can be in the millions of pounds right and I think that that um what we've interested me about um Mattereum and other groups is is you were talking about William Shatner um figures or or whatever right so memorabilia and things that would be in the 10 to 100 Grand asset class sometimes um if if and and I'm sure much more but but the interesting thing is actually like like you you've articulated it to me in the past of it being almost like a uh um a higher value eBay in some ways and and the the I think there's there's a middle ground that tokenization serves really well and then there's obviously um uh the permanent and many of the great things we know about the blockchain that that unlock um creativity and then I also think one of the things about the crypto Market is it is that interesting regulatory gray space where experimentation is possible Right like so I think it's there's many bad things about that but what you also get is the possibility of a petri dish um approach which I think is quite exciting and so so you can you people opting into this domain uh allowing

[17:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=1050s) themselves to be experimental and and I think on on any of those sort of truly regulated venues um I think they're gonna borrow from some of the experimentation that we've been doing in in like the full-on crypto space and then build on it and go right that's ready for prime time but obviously I think there's the other advantages of just the blockchain right um and and I'm I'm I know every there are many people on the pool that can really articulate that in a good way yeah I think I mean particularly when we look at things like our tracks you know it's pretty clear that if our trucks proves that there are good markets behind in those kind of regulated Securities you can easily imagine some group like London Stock Exchange you know picking those ideas up building on top of them we also haven't talked about valerium who are you know friends of ours who are talking about building and fully regulated Securities market for tokens uh in uh Gibraltar under the Gibraltar Stock Exchange banner and those kind of things like if you wind up with an exchange in Gibraltar doing that kind of stuff you know it's easy to see that that could spread to other jurisdictions and you would wind up with a general upgrade in the way the stock markets operate yeah and and okay it really is law of observing 10 I can tell um that security tokenization is one of the hot themes for the next few years and I think it's it's kind of um just and and I think it there's more legs we I think I think often when the crypto Market goes down people begin to go well what's happening over here in the security tokenization Market the securitizers and the arch axes and materials and and wherever right like and I know that obviously you're playing slightly less in that security token space but yeah I mean we review ourselves is coming before the secure times first you know we helped get the assets locked in and then that leaves the securitizers with a single nft purchase and then they can securitize it just makes their life so much easier foreign a couple more minutes please yeah 100 say the yeah no I think I think like there's a

[20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=1200s) lot of credibility coming from that space now if if you look at our checks they got funded by Aberdeen which is a huge asset manager right like like they they took over the old standard life among other things right which is an icon of the sort of the UK institutional um managing managing people's savings kind of areas so yeah absolutely you've got you've and I know for a fact that like there are and I think that night Dragon project where we we advise them and that's one of the first of many where you're seeing people go hey how do I get a 100 million 300 million dollar building and turn that into a token and then and then you get we were ideating in terms of like well where do you get to with like a kind of almost a tokenized Soho House in the building so you could get some exposure to the asset price but almost have uh um the token also Grant you access to a cool Club as as well as owning your property and you get these weird hybrid ideas that try and build on some of the flexibility of tokenization and the utility of tokenization and I think we're very early in in sort of almost Securities having utility and people thinking about that but it's a fascinating world when it happens yeah I mean I think that's kind of hybrid value model um makes a ton of sense in the uh it provides almost like internal diversification you know if you're paying a thousand pounds a year to be a member of some kind of Club but that's also giving you an equity stake in their building this sort of doubling up of utility and uh security interest is a kind of integrated module makes a ton of sense even in things like Kickstarter right if you're taking the risk of buying one of the first Run Productions that some company is doing the idea that that also gets you a tiny little Equity stake begins to look like a more Equitable deal I remember writing a piece about this kind of stuff very early on in the days of ethereum called Dog atheism which is basically an analysis of what happens when you can do this kind of composable value structuring Toby thank you so much thank you for that uh very comprehensive presentation

[22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=1350s) and I hope you'll be able to share that with the participants with the information as well I'll send it a long time Andrew and your team and um and send it away I mean thank you so much all right uh next we have a panel with three speakers uh specifically focused on real estate which of course still be uh covered a little bit in his presentation and we are very privileged today to have uh three brilliant uh presenters we have Yael Tamar from solid block we have John belitsky from balcony dial we have uh Daniel Fallon Kerr is it sir from plasma labs and Tom if you could please bring the slide up so um I am going to ask each of our speakers very briefly for one minute or so to introduce themselves and say a little bit uh about what they're doing and then uh once once everybody's introduced themselves uh we'll be able to move on to the more detailed conversation uh so perhaps Yael uh you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself hi everybody I'm Yael Tamar and the CEO and uh co-founder at salablock and as mentioned in the previous um um by the previous speaker we are the Pioneers you know one of the Pioneers in the real estate organization space we focus on Securities tokenization with uh real world assets acting as the um uh basically acting as a collateral and issuing Securities on top that digital Securities that can be traded collateralized can be combined in Structured Products and things like that thanks thank you thank you very much uh John could you please say a little bit about who you are and what you're doing sure thank you thank you for having me so I am the co-founder of balcony Dao and we are a I mean we kind of think of ourselves as a web three Investment Bank in a lot of ways um our projects were sort of born from the need to figure out ways to bring a pretty large portfolio in northern New Jersey and New York City that is about a two billion dollar uh terminal value portfolio of assets on

[25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=1500s) chain and the idea was you know was there a way for us to create more transparency and more liquidity for these assets and that that got us thinking about how we could incorporate the blockchain and ultimately we landed on the nft as the ideal digital doppelganger for Real Estate to represent these assets on chain which at the time was you know somewhat novel and our biggest problem at that point was adding enough metadata into this asset to to make it actually work on chain so we've spent the past year developing our own uh platform that allows you to tokenize these assets and then fractionalize them and I think later on in this talk talk we'll we'll sort of disambiguate both yeah we can get a little bit more technical a little bit later thank you very much John uh Daniel could you tell us a little bit about uh who you are and what you're working on that great and uh thanks for having me um so I'm Daniel Valance here uh co-founder at plasma Labs uh my previous kind of background uh was a product manager uh in both fintech and proptech for uh Intuit and BTS um so myself and my two other co-founders Ben and Alex uh started working on classical Labs uh back in April of this year so uh very new and kind of early uh early start stage startup um what our kind of goal at the beginning was to tokenize uh you know a physical asset so we started kind of looking at a boat or a yacht kind of in the in the bull market and that's something we got involved with with Mattereum and Binet um kind of reaching out to them learn more about the space that type of thing both of them kind of worked previously in crypto from 2017. um and then kind of as the the market shifted I ended up kind of uh working our way into real estate and most recently kind of really realize that there needed to be some form of standardization or base layer of ownership for tokenized Real Estate so we've just released an EIP like an ethereum improvement proposal for kind of a token standard for kind of base level real estate ownership um and then off of that we're working on standing up a decentralized mortgage protocol for bringing homes on chain for within the us right now that's fascinating thank you very much I'm sure Vina has a number of questions for you yeah so

[27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=1650s) um I guess uh you know this is currently a very hot topic um I think more or less the entire blockchain space is looking at real estate as possibly being the next thing that happens um and you know that General perception of real estate is potentially the future of the space I think is based on some pretty large structural inefficiencies inside the real estate industry as it currently stands um could ask the panelists to talk a wee bit about that uh just you know what do you think varying deficiencies are in the existing real estate model that there is the potential for fixing uh and I guess I mean maybe we should talk a little about the Saint Regis and the projects came after that as a starting point okay I mean I'm happy to talk about this new ages yeah and efficiencies we'll be staying here all night um but I think for the inefficiencies maybe we kind of should stick to the financial side of things and in real estate uh and asset management right but with the same ages which was the project that we got involved with in 2018 um kind of serendipity slash coincidence my co-founder Yuval put together a website saying we're tokenizing real estate and lo and behold we actually did so um the situation with the Senate Regis was that the asset wanted to recapitalize and elevated Returns the asset manager had a few choices one of which was the IPO in fact they started the filing you know they contracted the law firm and you can even see it on the SEC website you know that they started the IPO filing and then at some point they realized it would cost them two million dollars to file an offering for just about 18 million for the recap and so they I then realized you know and why in general did they even want to have a public offering or a treatable offering was because um it's a it's a landmark it's a very stable asset that you do not expect to um to get some sort of refinancing for five to seven years nobody's selling this asset um and so investors you know when they were they were asked if they want to buy the shares and they always would say okay great but when when am I going to be able to sell them back right right when does it make a liquid yeah exactly

[30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=1800s) so yeah so that's that's how they kind of came upon the concept of tokenization and they contacted us so we minted the first smart contract so it was essentially one of the first erc20 smart contracts that had this kyc ml accreditation kind of Gateway since then it has migrated into a different standard like ERC 1404 I think tokeny might have spearheaded that one so you know and that's that was pretty much kind of the Innovation behind that and an evolution from um from the early Ico type of contracts um which had no limitation you could easily in essentially what is tokenization it's just basically placing a contract investment contract onto web3 right so onto the space where onto the blockchain where you can trade it so the investment contracts until then in the in the on in the blockchain space where just transferable from one party to the other no limitation whatsoever very decentralized so we actually put the limitations so it does create a an effect of centralization even though kyc and ml you can technically also decentralize and there are a few companies working on that so since then so after the minting of our contract um actually a year and a half later Tesla's got involved with the project those actually a securitize got involved with a project like somewhere in the middle and then Tesla's got involved and they redid the contract so it's now on private Tesla's chain and it's trading on t0 on tezos so that's that's basically the history for the project gotcha and uh what's happening next uh I'm you know what are you what are the plans for future processes future projects for Sam Regis on General oh in general in general ah the plans actually so the industry has evolved right that was three years ago and um the industry has evolved in in different ways the first is basically a lot of the trading and transactions are now happening on the wallet to wallet level rather than on the platform level and so you know every investor even though there is a platform where there's an interface at the end of the day what they care about is there is a wallet where their information is sitting where their keyway cnml is located where their tokens are maybe where their crypto is and it's connected to a bank account in some way so um basically a wallet is your identity your kind of container

[32:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=1950s) where all your assets are right and also tokenized bonds and stocks and you know uh even maybe you know tokenized Fiat which is usdc stablecoin tokenst yet right is sitting there as well right so you don't need need any other places to really deal with so that's kind of what's happening and that's where we're going also with solid block a lot of the issuers did not want to be on the marketplace they're saying you know we're bringing our investors anyway so we want to bring our Brokers so the next stage is going to be broker dealers you know getting involved and you know larger asset managers are going to get involved and a lot of them just got crypto approved slightly before the FTS FTX Fiasco but I'm assuming they're not going to take that away so it seems like the industry is going to finally you know really go through that kind of jump so he's making a jump to having a complete Securities Pipeline and also begins to look very much like kind of traditional Trad fire regulated Finance yeah it is very much stratify I I mean that's that's what it seems like crypto has kind of a crypto Legacy I would say you know let you know led to kind of this um I would say merge between the tech on which crypto is running and very traditional institutions and that are now taking advantage of it and at the end of the day individualism company you know investors are going to benefit from that as well all right cool thank you very much uh John let me come to you so you're coming out of the real world you know real estate real estate real estate real estate now you are in Wonderland uh what do you see what are you up to what comes next well I mean it's it's really interesting having these conversations uh with people who are approaching this differently and who are coming from different parts of the world with different regulatory Frameworks um that are guiding their products and and their path to Market from from my perspective and from the perspective of balcony these are these are all Securities that are traded uh on exchanges that are regulated by funeral licensed broker dealers as security tokens and that's that's been the the only way that we've looked at this um throughout our journey and really the only way we continue to kind of build is is under that framework so the idea that there's sort of wallet to wallet transactions in this completely you know self-custody decentralized way is is a

[35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=2100s) little shocking to me frankly to think about it in in that perspective um the appeal of it is amazing you know obviously in a perfect world there isn't a regulatory requirement that you move through these markets and you can kind of trade these assets as you like but our view in the US at least is that these assets are subject to uh this regulatory framework that requires that we use broker dealers and so that also has benefits right so that comes with you know a TA that is going to hold on to that asset and God forbid you lose your wallet or it gets hacked or for whatever reason you don't have access to it it could be burned and reissued because the entire cap table is also being held with the TA it's being held on our blockchain it's being held you know in your records um and so we have sort of these redundant protocols in place to safeguard those assets and the the sort of broker deal or world view um but I I don't know I don't know that there's a future in the United States at least especially following FTX for assets that are traded in in any other way um even if we even if we wanted it to be different in my view so you know yeah I have a question for you I mean first of all I know you're a company I know I know your co-founder um who's a great guy by the way you have a wonderful product um do you guys have a broker dealer sort of pipeline product where users can actually purchase security tokens through a BD and then trade them and keep their asset with the TA so um you kind of I I wasn't going to say anything until the new year but that's pretty much the direction in which we're going where not only well now we do have that so you can technically let's say you want to uh go with a broker dealer the only difference is that now you have to use escrow and we have that set up with North Capital already where um you know the broker dealer will set will will distribute the security that we already have but that's um just the very beginning we want to be able to add a lot of Brokers and we want those Brokers to be able to add more Brokers and Reps so that a lot of you know that's if we learned anything from crypto is the power of the community and the power of sharing why because

[37:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=2250s) blockchain enabled us to share right enable us to share in a trustless way I don't want to be I don't want to have to as a broker I don't want to have to track all of these agreements I signed and all these commitments that I entered in and and other people owing me money and so on so forth you don't you don't want that um it's a lot of overhead so the good news is that blockchain is the perfect Ledger for keeping track of all those agreements and commitments not only that you can even resell them right so that's basically what what we want to um what we're doing now is creating this kind of broker affiliation system yeah so I mean my my perspective is that the blockchain is excellent at hashing those transactions but not great at managing those relationships and from my perspective the the nfts where we unlock the the collaborative potential of web3 because it becomes this container where every single activity relevant to the capital asset lives so if you have a mortgage a deed if you have an encumbrance if you have you know uh riparian rights under sold air rights if you have a broker dealer that is acting as an affiliate that is selling these Securities um all that stuff lives inside of this nft that's both the legal wrapper as well as this sort of folder for lack of a better word that speaks to the blockchain but we're thinking about it this should be a good part for Daniel to come in on because you're you're beginning to do a whole bunch of work on this can you talk us through a little bit um about you know what your work on particularly this new nft standard that you're bringing to the table yeah definitely um and so yeah I think at plasma Labs kind of the the two fundamental hypotheses we we kind of rest on are that uh you know people are going to want to transact digitally in real estate which I think we obviously I'll agree on um and people are going to want more malleable ownership structures um through fractionalization um Etc um and I I think there was a podcast I was listening to or an investor phrased it really well um and he said you know we live at this really interesting point in time where uh you know in our lifetimes um the entire you know Ledger of the world and transactions um Etc are moving from like purely pen and paper to likely purely digital you know and what he was interested in investing in

[40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=2400s) um was those companies that are going to basically create those rails and create that kind of uh you know structure for uh digital transactions um so we actually yeah we take a different approach uh than both of you and Allah I'll post the EIP that we just released in the chat here but our kind of with uh we kind of anchored the EIP to three objectives um and one is that these tokens are universally transferable um so I think a key component of D5 right is the the trustless and permissionless aspect to it and that's really what kind of enables the power of it so Universal transferability uh the second objective was that all property rights are maintained within the token so that's the right to hold right to alter right to rent right to occupy uh right to transfer and write to resell so that those are passed with the token and then lastly was that those rights are atomically transferable with the transfer of the token so I think that's really important so with us kind of the way that we've structured this is uh there is a centralized component in the sense that there's a asset administrator who basically lacks or acts as a legal representation and an owner of the asset and that legal owner basically a parent company would own a bankruptcy remote LLC that kind of protects the asset and the event of of any financial distress that they uh kind of like a standard SPV construct where you have a layer of spvs that represent the investor interested cuckoo and then below that SPV is a dow so in the U.S you know where we where we've started and we've kind of introduced a structure there is we have Dows recognized whether they be in Tennessee or Wyoming and that Dow is actually what issues the nft it's able to be algorithmically managed by smart contracts um it also holds the title and deeds of the property so then that's kind of just the base layer of ownership of allowing any smart contract address to own this property whether it be a protocol that owns it and a mortgage protocol or a fractionalization protocol and we kind of see all of that happening on top so all the securitization aspects happening kind of one layer higher but really focused on on the base layer of on-chain ownership being kind of free and transferable the same way a deed would be today for a property got it I

[42:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9c3_PoQ9xA&t=2550s) mean so Mattereum looked at this entire space you know a few years ago when we were just getting started and came to the conclusion that securitization was a super hard problem that required a ton of like very Advanced specialized legal infrastructure um but the custodial function of getting a clear definition of what the property is getting clean title getting it cleanly transferred into an SPV and nailing down all the liability around that that was a soluble problem for us as a kind of thing that we could tear off and do that would then be of service to the securitization uh Frameworks the broker dealers all the rest of this kind of stuff it was like a soluble subunit so you know as we've been sort of looking at the development of uh better standards for nfts and so on you know we've been very aware of like okay we want to figure out how to plug into this here's a legally sophisticated definition of what the property is which is being securitized this is how we plug that legal framework into the nft and then on top of that what we've envisaged is companies which will then take the nfts and then you know rip them to Pieces into the securitized fragments and then put those onto regulated marketplaces and John I know you're also working on standardization of new tokens designs for representing real estate rights tell us a little bit about what's happening at balcony with that yeah so you know firstly to disambiguate between tokenization and fractionalization for a second we view tokenization as the digitization of these assets on chain and that is the first step to fractionalizing that that is not a security in our review right so if you if you tokenize your home um a car or whatever the case may be and you own it as a one for one and sell it as a one for one you know that's equivalent to selling your home or any other real property whether you sell a painting on eBay or whether you sell a painting an open seat it shouldn't make any difference from a Securities regular point of view it might in some jurisdictions but generally speaking we think that one-to-one ownership is not securitization most places that's that's precisely our view um and so operating under that worldview right or wrong let's assume let's assume that's correct for a moment the fractionalization is what triggers the securitization of that asset um and so what we want to do is build a tokenization platform that allows for fractionalization if you care to fractionalize but we still see huge value in tokenization in its own right um so for example

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Continues in https://guptaoption.com/texts/568-2.md (part 2 of 3).
End of [568] The Third Mattereum Physical Asset NFT Meetup, 30 Nov 2022, part 1 of 3. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.