# Coin Telegraph AMA with Mattereum's Vinay Gupta 14th August 2023 (part 2 of 2)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [565], part 2 of 2. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2023-08-31 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg. Text: automatic captions, mostly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the law step (Mattereum, 2017), before the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024).
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Explains how the contracting layer is sold and built.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - Asset Passport conceived (2006): First idea for the Asset Passport: digital identity for objects, conceived alongside CheapID.
  - The Ethereum Launch Process (2015): Ethereum Foundation blog post, written as the new release coordinator, setting out the launch in stages:...
  - William Shatner collectibles with Mattereum (2019): Mattereum partnership with William Shatner giving memorabilia legally backed digital twins against fraud,...
  - Swarm with Mattereum (2023): Mattereum partnership with Swarm, a regulated German exchange, to tokenize and fractionalize real-world...
  - Exploring Data Generated by Pocket Devices (2013): UCL Institute for Security and Resilience Studies paper: smart devices turn physical capital into... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017.
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum.
  - environment / green capitalism: Green economics: from oil efficiency to markets for facts about products.
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - rich data capitalism: Cheap information changes what a market can carry: price signals hold only a few bits (2013), blockchains cut... (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (21%); Smart contracts, law & arbitration (21%); Crypto history, e-gold & digital money (13%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: fractional ownership (11 here; 12 sources in all, earliest dated 2020); Swarm (17 here; 29 sources in all, earliest dated 2008); real estate (29 here; 106 sources in all, earliest dated 2013, 2 undated); Mattereum (34 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); SIM cards (2 here; 2 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); real world assets (6 here; 24 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); DAO (5 here; 23 sources in all, earliest dated 2014); NFT (7 here; 45 sources in all, earliest dated 2019); The DAO (3 here; 13 sources in all, earliest dated 2016); proof of stake (3 here; 17 sources in all, earliest dated 2014)
- Importance: core-text score 0.43 (1.00 is the top), number 144 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- Related sources:
  - [295] [Singapore talk (2015)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/295.md): same career work: The Ethereum Launch Process
  - [716] [How do we control the material world with smart... (2018)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/716.md): same career work: Asset Passport conceived
- On the same works, just before: [566] [Why Global Trade Will Inevitably Move To The Blockchain (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/566.md); [712] [Compilation: Vinay Gupta (Mattereum / Ethereum) on Visa,... (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/712.md); [44] [Announcing Swarm x Mattereum Partnership - Mattereum (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/44.md)
- On the same works, just after: [783] [Vinay Gupta / DCxPrague (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/783.md); [749] [Vinay Gupta: AI's Impact on Jobs and Society (2023)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/749.md); [564] [Vinay Gupta at 'A Decade of #Ethereum' (2024)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/564.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Coin Telegraph AMA with Mattereum's Vinay Gupta 14th August 2023, video, 2023-08-31, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [565], https://guptaoption.com/texts/565.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 2 of 2
[39:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=2375s) economy in the way that we're doing it today it's a disaster Zone and we can only fix that by redemocratizing the world that doesn't just mean going to The Ballot Box and voting once every four years it also means directing engagement and direct ownership of the world's productive assets from the rainforests to the airline so that these things are well stewarded by the people that are affected by how they are run rather than just being controlled by very small corporate Elite that does everything possible to make sure the shareholders have no actual power mm-hmm yeah I'm really looking forward

[40:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=2408s) to this future where blockchain technology is going to enhance the concept of democracy uh so basically technology improving on the philosophical concept of uh democracy that's that's very fascinating to me um but now I would like to move on to the next question which is uh related to materials approach in Bridging the Gap between blockchain and real world property so how are you going to make this happen well so unusually for a crypto project we're not talking about our future plans right we did it two years ago and we've done it across a wide range of asset classes pilot projects for two years like two and a half years at this point um you know we did the first nfts tied to physical assets for uh William Shatner you know years ago at this point and you know that you know crossing point right you know proper Regals for control of a physical asset so that when you buy the thing as an nft the physical asset legally changes ownership and the lawyers can look at all those agreements and go yeah that's a transaction that really happened core to recognize it um you know that was a huge crossing point right uh and the most expensive thing that we've done that for was a hundred thousand dollar musical instrument which was a trumpet from an Australian DJ called Timmy trumpet and you know you can go to YouTube and you can see this trumpet played you know Stadium after a stadium after Stadium after stadium and Timmy sold it as an nft for a hundred thousand dollars to a farm right that's a huge deal right um and this stuff is just you know it really works it's not hypothesis it's not the thing that we're going to do in the future it's a practical reality people can come to us right now and say right I want to sell this thing is nfts and we can walk them through how to do it they bring a lawyer they and the lawyer we work with them this is your asset this is your jurisdiction these are your legal responsibilities this is what you're going to do with your tokens you know we just help them understand how they could do this and then they and their lawyers go through the process of doing it right and the fact that they bring their own lawyers I keep stressing that because if you can't bring your lawyer to the table and do the transaction no really heavy asset is ever going to be sold on chain right the lawyers are the ultimate Arbiters of physical reality if they say

[42:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=2558s) no the deal does not go right it's the ability to get lawyers to say yes which is at the heart of our competence so same thing when we start talking about doing securitization right splitting of assets fractionalization you need the lawyers to say yes and you know chipping away at that problem it's not easy to say to the lawyers look here's a completely new technology with a massively wildly powerful set of new capabilities how exactly are you going to do these deals you know they have to be coached you have to listen to what they say you have to learn from what they say you have to learn the language same thing with The Regulators you really have to soak yourself into this and then at the end of it you can come back with a proposal that says okay so we do this part with the technology we do this part with contract law we do this part with arbitration we do this part with insurance and you propose a deal structure and lawyers look at it and they say yes and the commercial people who can they say yes and then at that point you have transactions right and you know our intention here is you know we don't think there needs to be 50 companies like Mattereum right we won't just be there as a back end the powers the majority of the real world asset industry you know kind of like Amazon web services powered huge amounts of the dot-coms huge amounts of the app economy you know if you weren't on Amazon you were on Google and that was basically how everybody operated we think there's a need for something like that in the blockchain space to help people get the assets into a transoptimal form but we don't want to originate the deal flow for the entire tokenized economy on chain that doesn't make any sense right everybody can bring their deal flow to Mattereum Mattereum will then figure out what we can or we can't do we then get those things into the systems nft users asset passports these things could be securitized fractionalized all of those processes we've you know envisaged this as being the platform that powers the entire real world outside industry and then the real world asset industry could be 5 000 companies that have specialized knowledge specialized access to buyers specialized access to sellers specialized expertise for valuing deals putting deals together and all of those companies out there and they build these Enterprises and then at the back end when the transactional magic has to happen it comes to Mattereum that's where it happens and there are companies like this in the real world today Crest handle stocks and shares

[45:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=2708s) um uh you know Visa handles credit cards Swift handles big so like interbank payments and this kind of stuff and all of those mechanisms you have companies that are basically just pipe infrastructure that wire together the buyers and the sellers and provide evidence that value has transacted in everybody's lawyers agree that it's a safe deal we view Mattereum as being like that for the entire real world asset industry and all the fractionalization that comes with it

[45:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=2738s) awesome and now I would like to touch upon another piece of the puzzle so the concept of asset passport so Mattereum asset passports aim to provide information about the real world assets on chain so could you could you walk us through how this technology works and the value it brings to users sure um absolutely so this is the thing that we invented first this actually we invented this before nfts were a thing this is from pre-history uh it also just roots in the um Department of Defense project that I did oh I'm trying to think 2008 something like that right it was it was a ways back um and you know the core model there is when you want to identify something in the real world using a computer you have to have some kind of digital record that identifies the thing that is available and certifies what the object is and if there's an error in that Digital Data you don't want garbage and garbage out you want garbage in insurance payment and that's a real paradigmatic shift right garbage in garbage out you've got some records on chain they tell you what you're going to get you put your money in and what comes back is nonsense in the old world what happens at that point is you're screwed that's it that's all that happened nothing nothing happens right that's unacceptable you can't have a situation where somebody buys a house as an nft or buys 20 of an office building as fractional tokens and then they get nothing in return and everybody is like well YOLO you've got rugged right no no in the real world somebody does that somebody's going to jail right you try and pull that kind of nonsense with you know some you know hard bunch of New York real estate guys their lawyers will basically sue your grandmother and take her cards and that is an approach this is the kind of tightening up and the discipline that is needed for the blockchain to take a real position in the real world right until a blockchain deal is considered to be more trustworthy and harder access to Value than a real world deal the real world asset people won't touch it so what the Mattereum asset passport does is it nails down who is protecting the buyers in the deal right and that is a simple statement right but those buyers those buyers are

[48:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=2888s) fully legally exposed their money is online they say you buy this token you get this car this car is in great condition this car has no chips or damage the frame is straight it hasn't been in a crash this thing is for real you buy the token you take delivery of the car you take a look at the car and your mechanic is like this has been through a chop shop and this has been a two old broken cars I've been welded together and then coated in grease and sold you're in trouble well actually no I am not in trouble yeah this is bad purchase but now we're going to go and we're going to take the money of the people that said this was a good purchase it's a very very hardcore disciplined precise approach to making sure that when you buy something on chain you get what you paid for and the way that it works is you have a set of nominated third parties who all take responsibility for one part of the information about the asset and in the event that the information that they give you is wrong they give you money and if they refuse to give you money you can go through a claims process and you can take their money and if those assets are in one of 172 countries they can be seized by courts and handed to somebody's compensation right this also applies to on-train Insurance it applies to one chain escrow and in the future it will be applied to pools of assets that are on chain so you could take the gold bars that you own in a vault in Singapore and you can pledge them to underwrite your own deals if anything goes wrong in any one of these real estate deals I'm doing I have half a million dollars worth of gold in Singapore and it can be taken and handed to the party that is wronged in this instance and all of this stuff runs under a set of international treaties that have been around for 60 or 70 years and run hundreds of billions of dollars awards every year this stuff is absolutely fundamental to our international business works and the Mattereum Market passports are just ways of defining the assets exactly and pulling together all the pieces so you get these kind of airtight deals and what we're aiming for here is a situation where I bought it on chain becomes almost very nearly as precisely a statement of value as one Bitcoin is always going to be worth one Bitcoin right what we're looking for is the same kind of hardening of the assets and hardening assets and hardening of the assets to the point where the asset is so hard it's got so much insurance it's

[50:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3038s) got so much liability it's got so much protection that you could take a Bitcoin out your wallet and exchange it for the thing and not feel like you had taken a harder currency in exchange for a softer one right we have to bring the assets up to scratch to the point where you can transact them in return for incredibly hard assets like Bitcoin

[51:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3060s) yeah that's interesting and you mentioned how important it is that information related to the hard asset coincide with the information contained in the in the blockchain asset so that these two sides of the metal coincide and so I would like to um ask you how do you ensure that the accuracy and the security of the information that is linked that is linked to real world assets within the blockchain so how do you ensure the accuracy in the security of this information so the critical word here is ensure right this is this is the Crux of it right so the way that we think about it is when you buy something protected using the Mattereum system your value the amount of money that you wind up with at the end of the day your your net expected value should be the same whether the asset is accurate as described and perfect in every way whether the asset is missing because it's been stolen whether it's been destroyed whether the asset is damaged whether the asset is counterfeit doesn't matter what goes wrong in the deal you should walk out with the same amount of money at the end right now the only way that that is possible is if somebody else comes in and makes you whole and gives you money in the event but one of the bad things happens and this is really a common Arrangement if you have gold and you give the gold to Vault the store and the Vault gets a raw but they give you money if you have a gold vault and they don't have insurance there will not be a single ground of gold in that vault right the vault is really a bridge to the insurance same thing if you're going to buy a house the realtor has to give you real accurate honest true information about the house if the realtor wise to you about the house and then you purchase the house based on the bad information you take them to court right the problem that we have in the real world is that those mechanisms are really difficult and expensive to use right when something goes horribly wrong in a real estate deal the most common thing that happens that stops people being made whole in the process is that you sue somebody and then they go bankrupt and at that point it's like oh there's no money now right you know you can't go blood out of stone you know the company that did the deal went bankrupt it has no assets there's no value in there and then at that point you as the buyer of the real estate are just posed there's nothing you can do generally speaking right so to make sure that that

[53:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3210s) doesn't happen what we have to get is a bunch of really really big heavyweight entities to hold on to the money right we're talking insurance companies we're talking huge like Dow style escrow contracts with thousands of people putting in hundreds millions of dollars of value into pools which are then used to underwrite Deals and when the deals go well they get paid when they go poorly they have to make payouts these things could essentially be like Insurance syndicates all of this infrastructure will be built out over the next 5 10 15 years to the point where you have an asset you look at it on chain you can see hundreds of different routes that get value in the event that the asset isn't described depending on what goes wrong where it goes wrong when it goes wrong you can order on chain presumably using artificial intelligence exactly how all those routes to Value work and How likely they are to be possible when you need them and then you buy the asset with a very strong statistical basis for believing that your financial interests are protected when you purchase it and this approach the objective here is not to be as good as the real world right real world real estate transactions are notoriously shoddy they're slow they're expensive they're crappy that I'm reliable they're uncertain you never really know what you've got until five years after you bought it and then you really hope that piles up into these huge piles of risk so what we have to do on chain is we have to propose something which is fundamentally better than that right we have to get into a position where you buy something on chain and it's better than buying in the real world because it's more secure right and you know we cannot get this economy to lift off until we can make that promise enough to ever be heard and capped does that kind of make sense I mean this is a really really different way of thinking about the blockchain because we've seen so much fraud and misuse of the ethereum technology in the past five years you know ethereum has become almost synonymous with fraud you know you say somebody oh I just bought some tokens on ethereum it's going to be great and everybody assumes you've just been robbed and this is a cultural disaster right if that was what I thought ethereum was going to turn into I would never have worked on it I wouldn't go near with a barge pull what I was after was Financial transparency right transparency accountability Trust uh a body of transactional data that could be used to justly and fairly

[56:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3360s) regulate the world you know I really really wanted us to make a better Planet using these Technologies and you cannot do that in an environment where I got rugged is the end of a sentence right it has to be I got rugged and then I made a claim on insurance I got rugged and these people are now in jail I got rugged and then I seized 40 pounds of gold bars to make up for the damages I've taken you can't have I got rugged to be the end of the story and we have to get out of a culture where I got rugged as a thing that people say to each other as if that's the end

[56:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3403s) yeah and actually I would like to follow up on this topic because it's a very important one and it has to do with the regulation so how to prevent this uh fraudulent activities so regulation plays a critical role in the asset tokenization space and so I would like to ask you how is Mattereum addressing regulatory challenges and ensuring compliance while innovating in the blockchain realm so generally speaking as long as you are moving towards a fair trade environment right where some person pays for something and they exactly what they paid for if you're moving towards that Regulators generally speaking think that's a good idea there's your financial regulator your job is to sort of make sure that people aren't defrauding each other they're not calling each other you know you're not making a mess of the future so the way that we're doing what we do is we're using the building blocks of the existing Financial system right warranties arbitration courts um the sort of Frameworks of international business we're taking these things and we're basically just bringing the cross onto the blockchain in a way that the lawyers are generally approve of one step at a time right and what happens is as you build out these institutional infrastructures the blockchain becomes more and more and more the kind of place that real people can do transactions on because you're not taking assets out into this wild west environment what you've done is you actually weighed down the foundations right and you know again I want to go back to the early days of ethereum ethereum was going to have four phases right and this is the very early stuff this is like free Genesis block right four phases there was Frontier which was we just put the chain up we didn't know if it was going to be stable we were hoping we could maintain consensus we really crossed our fingers and hoped that it would hold together right um then there was Homestead right the chain had been up for a while we were comfortable enough that it was going to stay up we didn't anticipate any more hard Forks it was good to go start building but the two steps that came after that were metropolis and serenity um Serenity was straight up proof of stake right we were no longer you know contaminate the atmosphere with massive amounts of mining we'll get into a position where this is a clean technology done but Metropolis we never

[59:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3553s) made it to and Metropolis was the idea that we were going to wind up with a really really clean and usable user interface for the entire ethereum system in the form of a web browser-like application called mist and missed wound up with unfixable security problems it was improved that just couldn't work with that kind of technology and it was one of the very few actual technological failures from the ethereum project um what that's left us in is a position where we want to do transactions of using metamask and the problem with metamask is you get into a position where you're about to do the transaction and you kind of have to trust that the smart contract does what they say it does because metamask doesn't have the tools for peeling the smart contract apart and telling you exactly what's going to happen to your money um but what I've noticed recently is that there are some new projects in the space which are sort of wallets that do a Predictive Analytics thing they run the transaction on what amounts to a copy of the chain they look at what actually happens and then they tell you the actual full effect of executing the transaction and those kind of tools take us towards the Metropolis reality right they take us into a situation where our financial regulator can look at the blockchain and say look they've got full transparency about what these transactions are going to do they've got a very strong guarantee that if they click the button that says sign this contract I agree they know exactly what will happen to their assets they've got insurance and warranties and arbitration tribunals and all the rest of these systems in place to make sure that there is a very very strong claim on value if something goes wrong hey this is actually safer than doing this stuff down on Wall Street I don't see any reason we would give this these people a hard time welcome to the club you are now real Finance right and that process the stuff that's happening in Germany around swarm is a huge step forward in that process but when you start pairing it up with these new generations secure transaction environments around ethereum you begin to set the preconditions for the Metropolis Revolution right we expected Metropolis to happen before Serenity we thought we were going to get Mass adoption and a browser-like environment before we got to proof of stake as it happens we got proof of stake first that's great and now we have to go back and we have to fill in the gaps and build the thing that Metropolis was always meant to be which was a safe environment for Mass adoption of ethereum

[1:01:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3703s) okay and now um I would like to know more about your plans token right because as far as understand you are also planning a token launch so could you share a bit more details about this upcoming launch um yeah absolutely I'd be I'd be more than delighted um so the first thing I want to say is that I don't talk about the token very much and I try and talk about the token very very carefully because the legal issues around tokens are very very complicated and it's very easy to stick your fruit in your mouth and wound up in the position that a lot of Hollywood celebrities wound up in where they were suddenly being called to answer for their words so if I seem like I'm being a little careful here and not saying things in the kind of massively enthusiastic way that you're used to hearing people talk about their tokens in be aware the part of what goes along with trying to do things in a way which is a bit more diligent and careful is you can't just go out there and tell people this thing is going to go to the Moon you should sell your dog and buy this token you just can't do it because these things may turn down not to be true and everything is about having a really clear understanding so how are we going to do this right we've gone through two massive bull markets without issuing a token right if we had been a bunch of scumbags we could have issued a token on crappy Wiggles in 2018 we probably would have gotten away with it a lot of people did right we could have issued it at the middle of the nft hype we're going to kicked a token out there on crappy Wiggles we probably would have gotten away with it a lot of people did right the reason we haven't done this is frankly I'm interested in much bigger game right you know I keep explaining to folks around you know Mattereum look Mattereum is a hundred million dollar company from my perspective as a failure right it's just not good enough it's not going to do what I needed to do what I'm looking for is Mattereum is a core piece of financial infrastructure for the entire planet I wanted to be in the same category as Crest Swift Visa right huge financial infrastructure because this is the scale that is required to turn ethereum and the blockchain as a whole into a daily part of everyday life and I genuinely believe that we can fix many or even most of the political problems in the world by

[1:04:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=3853s) moving from a debt-based economy to an equity-based economy and moving from a untransparent financial infrastructure to fully transparent Financial infrastructure right so I am a True Believer right you know blood to sweat and tears largely in obscurity for most of a decade to implement the original ethereum Vision fully but it needs a bridge and it needs a massive Bridge so if we're going to get there we come up to a flaky token issue on shoddy legals and then expect that to not bite us much later in the pathway when people start looking at this and like these tokens um was that really legal at the time it was done well uh sure right and we just can't go down that path so we've had to put our feet extremely carefully and extremely slowly and to be honest swarm is the critical thing here the fact that they've got the necessary licensing they could do all the stuff that t0 was hoping to do they could do all the stuff that bittrex Global was hoping to do think into all the stuff that our trucks is hoping to do but they can do it in a way that's really relatively easy to use and very accessible you know it's really very close to the thing that everybody has been promising but it never really seemed to land in a way that was fully ready to go the Swarm thing all praise to them they are incredible it's fully ready to go so and actually I wouldn't want to be clear it's not just fully ready go it's fully going you could go there and you could buy Tesla stock you could buy US government t-bills right you could go there and buy various kinds of mining pool stuff right I mean you sort of don't expect to go to a crypto exchange and see them selling Tesla stuff but it's actually happening fully regulated I mean this stuff is staggering right I mean it's it's completely mind-blowing they've done this and by the way they also have their own token so their token was very close in design to the Mattereum Token that we had been working on designs for now and again over the years and that was because the both tokens were shaped by a similar understanding of the legal environment the likely regulatory situation so in terms of how the Mattereum token will work all I can say is look at the Swarm token it has been shaped by the same forces it is being delivered by some of the same infrastructure the Mattereum token will be on Swarm and if you want to understand kind of sort of the sorts of things are token to work and how the tokenomics are likely to be take a look at the Swarm token because that one

[1:06:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=4003s) worked in the way that it's meant to it's a pretty clean way of doing this so that is probably all that I ought to say uh in terms of the details of the token in terms of the time scales um quite soon right like when we put together the plan we sort of looked at Q3 and said cross your fingers maybe um slippage into Q4 was expected we have slippage into Q4 I think it is very unlikely that we would see slippage into q1 of next year I don't want to give anybody dates I don't want to talk about timelines too much um but the way that it will work is there will not be massively heavy marketing branding and promotion initially right there'll be some quiet announcements if you're interested in getting those announcements get signed up to our mailing list uh get onto our telegram Channel but there will be a point where we just say okay go for a swarm get your kyc AML Etc sort it out over there we have some good news right and there will be a time period when it's just very very quiet off you go and then there will be some announcements and there will be some announcements like hey here's some gold bars here is some real estate here is some fine art I'm not going to say for sure exactly what and when obviously all of those things have bars and sellers and you know we have to conclude those deals and do the listings and all the rest of the things that we have to do you know all of that has to be done right the asset passports have to be prepared those companies have to get their lawyers to agree you know like they're no Hard Promises but as we begin to get really serious product on chain then we begin to talk about the Mattereum token much more if you would like to go and buy these gold bars there is a Mattereum discount token you can do the transaction for less money than if you didn't use the token ah and at that point marketing the Mattereum service and by the way the token is kind of like Air Miles this is the sort of thing that starts to actually work right because you know putting a huge amount of PR behind a token a token is not a product right a service is a product we want to put the energy behind the service and pull the token behind the service because if people are using the service in a massive way the token is an economically efficient thing for them to do right what we're trying to avoid is

[1:09:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=4153s) something which is largely driven by marketing rather than by delivery right it's a very very very delicate balance because you know it's just much safer legally and it's much safer culturally emotionally to tell people about things after you've done them than to lay out an enormous roadmap about what you expect to happen tell everybody it's going to happen then cross your fingers you can deliver so this is the kind of trajectory that we're on uh and if you ask me you know like how is the token going to do and what will happen in the market all I can really say is this right from our perspective being able to get trillions of dollars real world assets onto the blockchain has been what the ethereum ecosystem has needed from the beginning and if we succeed in getting the first chunk of those assets on chain in a way that makes it obvious the rest can be done and it will scale we will be looking at a rebirth for the entire ethereum ecosystem as part of the real world so cross your fingers that we can deliver what we think we can deliver but if we come it is going to be the beginning of a whole new round of evolution yeah and I love the big Ambitions of the project I think um that's what we should aim for um but yeah like I think we are running out of time so I would like to just give UVA the opportunity to share some final thoughts about what your community should look forward to in the next few months sure um so here take a look at our recent press releases right take a look particularly our Partnerships I want to draw attention to two deals in particular so the first is Neo swap uh John Anderson's firm so neospope is a bunch of folks with phds who are very into their math and they're very into mechanism design and algorithms and also by the way AI we haven't talked very much about AI hopefully we'll do another one of these where we'll really get into blockchain and Ai and blockchain and AI legal and I think that the conclusions we reach there will be completely mind-blowing but that's for the future um so Neo swapper doing things like Reinventing how auctions work and you think of you know auctions as a mechanism this is a really old mechanism I don't even know when the first auction

[1:11:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=4303s) was but it's probably more than thousands of years ago you know I mean it's certainly more than a thousand years I bet so what they're doing is they're Reinventing auctions so you can have multiple buyers and multiple sellers aren't the same auction but rather than having a situation where everybody has to sort of wait for the thing to sell before they know how much money they have to buy with everybody goes around and sticks a price tag on everything they're interested in and then everybody decides whether they're going to accept the price or not in the algorithm then figures out what transactions to do to maximize the value of going through the system and it's this kind of weird thing of like it's like a parallel computer version of an auction and you know the underlying math is quite quite mind-blowing you also need to use a whole bunch of AI stuff to maximize the probability that people say yes the deals that are proposed but what it allows for is the potential for staggeringly Capital efficient trade you know a bunch of people with commodities a bunch of people with gold a bunch of people with currencies a bunch of people with real estate a bunch of people with equity in public companies all bring these things to the table price the other stuff that other people have and decide what they're interested in and then you run a batch transaction all this stuff gets swapped around on a single Exchange oh my God right you know right now if you want to sell you know wheat Futures that's happening on one exchange if you want to sell IBM stock is happening in another exchange if you want to sell gold that's happening somewhere else all of these marketplaces are totally split up and vulcanized and you know what the neoso folks are pointing at is this now idea of cross Marketplace liquidity for real world assets with massively uh well worked out algorithmic optimization of the trade this stuff is a big freaking deal so I highly recommend taking a closer look at what news what we're doing uh a little like Mattereum they tend not to promise a lot so you go over there and look at it's like hmm nfts being traded for tokens huh their ambition is a re-architecture of the entire Financial system around new algorithms so everything in the world that is Market priced or auctioned suddenly is embedded in this new trade infrastructure staggering right another crypto real estate 1700 properties already priced in Bitcoin and ether right um You can imagine you start thinking about these things as nfts you start thinking about the possibility of securitization you put all of that stuff

[1:14:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=4453s) together something very new happens in real estate and by the way they have property all over the world right crypto real estate go take a look at what they've got go take a look at what's happening over there take a look at the announcement we made with those folks sort of think you know your crypto real estate over here you've got swarm over there there is a bunch of very very exciting as yeah unannounced gold stuff I can't say more than that it is unannounced it may never happen but it sure looks like it might and you sort of think well okay we got real estate over here we got gold over here we got all of this tokenized equity in companies like Tesla as well accessible because it's already trading on Swarm you begin to see the possibility for a universal exchange with algorithms that you can't get access to on the New York Stock Exchange or the Chicago Board of Trade or anywhere else in the world for cross asset class liquidity right I I really kind of emphasize this enough we are not talking about being the coolest thing on the blockchain we're talking about being the coolest thing in the world and that's not hay Mattereum that's Mattereum it's neoswap it's swarm it's crypto real estate a lot of other companies that are all great into grips with this real world asset thing and this algorithmic trading thing in different ways the AI folks will be along for the ride pretty soon and what comes out of that is something that will make the history of ethereum so far look like the blue touch paper on a firework the size of a car because when it goes off it's the world financial system poured onto the ethereum blockchain because that's where the algorithms are that can actually execute your trade most efficiently and the financial system will route the transactions onto the most efficient trading infrastructure it can find because that's what the financial system is for okay um Vinay I think this is a good uh moment to wrap up the discussion so I really hope that um we are gonna see soon the coolest thing in the world materialize um as you define it and uh yeah I would like just to to thank everyone all the listeners apologize for the initial technical issues of the AMA um I would like to thank you Vinay for sharing your time and your experience

[1:16:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5bFKPqLDg&t=4603s) with us so before we um we say goodbye I would like to I would like you to share with our audience how people could keep in touch with materials updates and if they're interested how they can contact your team so uh Twitter Mattereum Twitter you can see their own uh they're here um I'm also on Twitter Twitter is a good way to get hold of us I should call X now X we do have a telegram group it is not terribly active uh email is fantastic so telegram come over there talk to us make it more active we would love that email there is a mailing list you could get on the mailing list we will send you regular information about what's going on that is the definitive place if you just want to get an occasional message about what's happening you come to the telegram group we will tend to diverge or quite a bit and talk about other things um and uh sales at Mattereum.com if you're interested in getting your assets to Market um you all know how massively fraud prone and dangerous the blockchain environment is when it comes to people doing things like posting crypto keys and telling you to send your money to them right now because you can get Mattereum tokens early no you can't never do it don't touch up the barge pole never do any of that stuff right um so that's basically how everything works right you know you contact us by email you tell us what's happening um I think that's basically everything we need to know anything else okay cool um yeah so I will look forward to see the developments of the tokenization of Assets in the next years and yeah thanks a lot Vinay for joining the discussion thanks everyone for listening and see you hopefully see you soon on the next coin Telegraph show fantastic thank you so much

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End of [565] Coin Telegraph AMA with Mattereum's Vinay Gupta 14th August 2023, part 2 of 2. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.
Read next: next on the same works, [783](https://guptaoption.com/texts/783.md) Vinay Gupta / DCxPrague (2023); the most closely related, [295](https://guptaoption.com/texts/295.md) Singapore talk (2015); his whole career in one file, https://guptaoption.com/story.md.