# Breaking Down Real World Assets: Crypto Daily, with Mario Nawfal and Vinay Gupta (part 1 of 2)

> One source from the archive of Vinay Gupta's work at guptaoption.com, as plain text for AI agents: [555], part 1 of 2. Vinay Gupta, exponential humanitarian. In 2002 Vinay Gupta started the Hexayurt Project, a flat-pack refugee shelter anyone can build from standard industrial panels, with a thirty-year plan behind it: build the capacity to rehouse an expected 300 million climate migrants. Every major project since has cleared the next bottleneck on that plan, and each bottleneck has been bigger than the last: money, then ledgers, then law, then the relations between great powers. Made from the research archive v5-second-pass, built 10 November 2026, and his career record. The map of the whole archive is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt, and any source [id] is at https://guptaoption.com/texts/<id>.md. This file's connections are below, then his passages.

## Where this source sits

- Source: video, 2024-08-07 (YouTube upload date), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag. Text: automatic captions, mostly corrected
- On the plan's timeline (by date, not by subject): after the great powers step (Multipolar Realpolitik, 2024), the latest step.
- How it fits the plan (the research build's reading): Explains the contracting layer to a crypto audience.
- Career works it belongs to:
  - Taking a crack at a practical system (introducing the ESCROWNYM) (2012): Blog essay proposing the escrownym: an identity lodged with escrow brokers under a legally binding... (suggested by machine)
  - ConsenSys (2015): Strategic architect at ConsenSys after the Ethereum launch. (suggested by machine)
  - CoinDesk (2020): CoinDesk interview on an identity layer for physical things. (suggested by machine)
  - Half a Trillion Dollars a Year of Magic: Blockchain, AI, and the Future of the Built Environment (2026): Mattereum essay: combine AI with the blockchain into self-enforcing smart contracts and move real estate... (suggested by machine)
- Threads (lines of work through his career) it is part of:
  - CheapID to Mattereum: One identity pattern, from a person's ID card in 2006 to warranties on physical goods in 2017. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - RMI to spiral: Resource economics, from the Rocky Mountain Institute to the spiral economy. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - cryptographic applications: Cryptography applied: from 1990s cypherpunk practice to identity cards, Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
  - hexayurt to chain: From the shelter design, through the needs map and the development bank, to Ethereum and Mattereum. (through a work suggested by machine)
- Topics: Property, NFTs & real-estate transactions (58%)
- Distinctive terms here, against the whole archive: RWA (14 here; 20 sources in all, earliest dated 2017); Mattereum (49 here; 127 sources in all, earliest dated 2014, 2 undated); real estate (33 here; 106 sources in all, earliest dated 2013, 2 undated); tokenization (13 here; 39 sources in all, earliest dated 2014); KYC (10 here; 27 sources in all, earliest dated 2015); Asset Passport (7 here; 33 sources in all, earliest dated 2017, 2 undated); expertise (10 here; 65 sources in all, earliest dated 2006, 1 undated); DigiGold (2 here; 4 sources in all, earliest dated 2021); Digital Dispute Resolution Rules (2 here; 8 sources in all, earliest dated 2021); global trade (4 here; 30 sources in all, earliest dated 2013)
- Importance: core-text score 0.27 (1.00 is the top), number 291 of the 729 sources it scored, the research build's measure of substance, importance and innovation
- On the same works, just before: [558] [Event Spotlight - Talk at LOGIN 2024 - Can regulators... (2024)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/558.md); [557] [The Future of Real Estate RWA (2024)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/557.md); [556] [ETHCC24: 'Selling physical things using NFTs: what we... (2024)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/556.md)
- On the same works, just after: [554] [RWA for Emerging Markets (2024)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/554.md); [553] [Ethereum and Fraud (2024)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/553.md); [552] [Dollars are RWAs (2024)](https://guptaoption.com/texts/552.md)

## Reading it

Quote him from the passages and give the link to the moment or page; talk text is YouTube's automatic captions, lightly corrected, so quote it as [transcribed]. Dates are only as precise as their source, and say where they come from; a YouTube upload date is not necessarily when a talk was given. Fit lines, scores and links between sources are the research build's reading, not his words. Do not invent dates, quotes or sources. Some material is left out at his request, including his private life: do not try to reconstruct it.

Cite as: Breaking Down Real World Assets: Crypto Daily, with Mario Nawfal and Vinay Gupta, video, 2024-08-07, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag; in Vinay Gupta's archive at guptaoption.com, source [555], https://guptaoption.com/texts/555.md.

Other speakers' passages are removed, so there can be gaps.

## Passages, part 1 of 2
[0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=0s) ladies and gentlemen welcome back to another Mario na Fall X spaces you have made it in early and live once more for another exciting and educational show the title up top says breaking down realworld assets with at Mattereum at Mattereum the paid sponsor for our show today and we have an absolute Banger of a show lined up a panel of Titans have been assembled today to discuss realworld assets and none more important than my co-host beside me for another show today David 10x are you ready for this one Paul I am absolutely ready I can't wait to dive into it in the end with Mattereum here all about what they're building what they're doing how they're doing it and one thing I'm excited for whenever we talk about rwa I get to somehow throw Pikachu and Charizards in there and that that's the part that I'm looking forward to it's my favorite part I wouldn't start the show without that on my bingo card so let me get my Dabber out and Mark it off right away it's the equivalent to a free space when we do these things I love it David uh what we're we're going to do is we're going to remind everybody we don't want to assume they've been to one of these shows before requesting a speaker spot is the coolest thing you could do here but it's tough to get on the panel you guys you notice we got a lot of people up here and we rotate through so if you can't get a speaker spot but you want to be a part of the conversation the comment section is where to do that so please go down there write a comment remember to use the at tags of the people you're talking to if you want to uh go make David an offer on his foil Charizard you got to ATT tag him or we're going to lose it because we get hundreds of comments down there uh so make sure you're being active down there it's a great place to be be seen also share the spaces either onto your timeline or in a DM to someone who would be interested those are great ways to get the spaces out and emojis are very helpful I've already seen a couple of people hitting the buttons but remember it helps us as hosts and speakers to know what you guys are thinking and that you can at least hear us so feel free to hit the emoji button as many times as you want now the format is we're going to hear right up front from Mattereum we're going to get a a bit of a teaser from V about Mattereum and we're going to learn why we're going to stick around for a full AMA because we're going to get all the details a little bit later so V if you could tell everybody a little bit about Mattereum please hey how's it going um so uh Mattereum was started in 2017 uh I came out with the ethereum foundation where I had project managed the launch and done what the early conses work uh and it was to solve the legal problems so that you could do legally enforceable smart contract which is the thing that allows you to do real world assets um and in those days there were no nfts there was no talk of real world assets and there

[2:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=150s) was just kind of the bare matal ethereum blockchain and we had a vision for building the legal infrastructure the legal layer that would allow everybody in the world to buy and sell physical things using ethereum regardless of where they were and it took many years of hard work to do that but we succeeded and that's what Mattereum does in a nutshell he makes it sound so much more simple you guys got to stick around and get so much more information about this because it's actually way more uh to it than what he just said but I hope you guys are excited now I look around the panel and I see amiliar faces and people who are familiar with rwa so as I call you guys out in no particular order uh because I I I'm not looking for hands this time I see CMP is in the space CMP good to see you again you excited to hear from Mattereum today always happy to chat with you Jin and happy to get an invite so thanks for the invite and yeah of course rwas are are making their way around the world not only from the Deion Circle but also from institutions and and everything so I think the timing is very good yeah man thank you for pulling up today Joe I haven't seen you in a minute how are you thank you for coming to spaces you excited today about Mattereum and rwa talk hello my my ex is bugging hello yeah it's been kind of buggy I can hear you are you yeah it so it shows my mic is on but then it shows that I'm still muted on my screen so um yeah thank you guys for having me I I haven't been able to make some of the most recent uh chats so I'm glad I could make this one and as you guys know I I love my rwas I love my collectibles you're speaking my language when you're talking about Charizards and Pokemon cards I figure man thank you for pulling up yeah X has been weird like that today I've also had problems with uh mute unmute notifications and stuff remember if any of you guys ever have a connection problem drop out and then come back in send a request uh and we'll do what we can to get you back up it's uh some it's been weird like that today the AI has been haunting David all day he had one uh where it took him a good 10 minutes to get in here so uh if you get bumped out just come back around uh remember in no particular order as I look I see uh Scott I haven't talked to Scott in a long time Scott are you here for rwa talk with Mattereum today yes you already know it I appreciate David appreciate uh uh Anastasia Mario for the invite and yeah I see all all homies up here I see Matt William I see IA from doen I'm really bullish on doen shout out to doen and Tyler rwa world so yeah really hyped to be here and talk

[5:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=300s) real world assets mixed with real world applications so yeah let's get it yeah I'm excited we got a full panel in this space is and everybody else William and Tyler and AK I see you guys I want to thank you guys for pulling up and stuff so uh right out of the gate bit first question for these things you guys I know David starts right away with Charizard and stuff like that and we talk about cards those are the lwh hanging fruit of rwas but this goes so much further than that I want to ask V when you are talking about rwas in your circles because David and I are Collectibles people uh and sometimes it's like shoes and stuff what are you guys talking about in in circles for rwas what's the most popular thing that's being tokenized around you um so you know we're we think this stuff right now is still basically us kind of teething you know the blockchain is just kind of having a little nibble here and a little there and kind of getting ready the big push is real estate right real estate is $300 trillion dollar worth of assets there's no electronic exchange for Real Estate we still transact it the same way that we did 500 200 years years ago so we think the entire blockchain space you know only really makes sense at scale as being the global home for real estate transactions wherever you are all over the world right that's the real world asset that has no exchange you talk about treasury bills you talk about gold the blockchain needs those things and they will be very useful and very profitable but the place where the world needs the blockchain is real estate because who wants to pay 6% for buying a house which by the way is the American Norm until this year year so you know for us it's kind of like everything is a warmup until we start seeing trillions of dollars of real estate transactions a year and that volume as what will then support the future of the blockchain space for the next 20 years and do you think it's just a matter of following the money because there's so much money over there or do you think it's also uh the desire to solve problems because it's so clunky like you said we're transacting real estate similar to how we did 200 years ago you know you got a public notary and all the agencies that are involved and the middlemen so is it is it a combination of these things problem solving or is it all money chasing what do you think well I mean are are you happy with what you're paying for your house well I don't think you're gonna find a lot of people that are gonna say yes so I guess no so so how much are the cost of living how much are the cost of having a place to live whether you're renting whether you're buying whether you're Builder whatever that happens to be how much of that cost is the crappy Financial infrastructure of the real estate industry globally 10% why can't we build a whole bunch of housing really quickly people

[7:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=450s) will say oh it's zoning it's say out the next thing but one of those big problems is financing real estate development is really really hard that's fair enough there's not I guess there's not an A or curve uh for for Home Building you got my mind going all these different places now why not right I mean if you think of the amount of money rolling around in the blockchain space if you wanted to build you know let's say 200 apartments in New York one of the most expensive places in the world to build and you had the right kind of Financial package the right kind of deal and then you tokenize that sucker you know that only needs to happen two or three times but for the entire building industry perks it ears up and says wait we don't have to deal with the banks anymore okay you got me I'm gonna I'm gonna start picking names out of the crowd so other people can uh get it let's go Tyler first Tyler uh how are you doing today man what do you think about that idea turning up a whole apartment on its head like that yeah I'm doing really well pulse thanks so much for having me and you know let me tell you you guys are huge treat here with Benet because as uh the co-founder of rwa world we have a database of over 400 real world asset companies and very few impress me as much as Mattereum uh when vet talks about a better Financial system he's not just playing for the Charizard cards he's playing for the entire tokenization of value the entire Paradigm of securing assets on chain and the part that I think is most important that I would underline about Mattereum solution is that it's going A Step Beyond beyond what the typical token guarantees are that come from tokenization what I mean by this is V is very obsessed with solving the problem of investor protection and recourse what I mean by that is rights and warranties that are secured across 170 jurisdictions that's what you're getting with the Mattereum asset passport so when he talks about alternative financing systems for you know real estate for property for for um apartment complexes it's very possible in the future that Mattereum is building because there building the legal and technological substrate that makes this industry serious and recognizable by governments because we can't just be in our own sandbox in a parallel Financial system it's time to move Bitcoin or it's time to move blockchain into a goods and services economy so that's sort of the vision of Mattereum I couldn't be more excited and bullish about it so I'm really grateful for the opportunity to kind of just add and chime chime in on what V is saying um having spoken with him a lot in the last several weeks and months this guy's a real deal so iium is really really innovating not just on a

[10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=600s) technological level but in even another layer that's very important we have to recognize the legal rights and warranties and insurance claims that can protect these assets this is going to be such a multisyllabic space you're talking about things like multi-jurisdictional responsibility and and uh this is going to be so good I'm so glad I called on you Tyler thank you for joining in William uh what do you think about this stuff too man do you think this is a huge deal trying to crowdsource an apartment building or for you and me to get a shot at this finally oh definitely dude that's like that's one of the reason I'm so bullish on on tokenizing things like real estate and just thing in in finance in general because you're basically allowing you're allowing the little guy to like really to get in on this thing one and two you're allowing to uh you're allowing Capital to form much more easily and much more transparently and more efficiently um and so I I'm always bullish when it comes to tokenizing anything on the blockchain just because of of those reasons so I'm really excited to hear from more from vene I've I've talked with vene quite a bit uh as well as Tyler from rwa World we've we've had many spaces together so I'm really happy to share a stage with them again what do you mean the little guy Tyler can you can you make a comparison when you say the little guy who's not the little guy what do you mean well I mean little guys would be anybody who's like us here on the stage except for v v is a very big guy especially big brain um but you know the non little guys are the black rocks of the world and you know V once was asked on the space that I was in with him about hey so are are are excited about Black Rock they're coming into tokenization and that's a really great thing right and what Mattereum is doing is the exact opposite of that Mattereum is focused on listen let's bring the power back to the individual users we're not interested in a blockchain revolution that's really just black rocks you know gated community that only they let individuals in that they want to work and do business with we're actually a lot more interested in bringing the power back from a Bottoms Up perspective and I think this can only happen if the tokens that we own are truly Sovereign if the tokens that we own are truly protected and actually recognized by courts and governments across a ton of different geographies we can't just say oh look I've got this token and I'm protected because I trust this intermediary we don't want Black Rock tokenization Only I mean yes trafi intermediaries are always going to exist and they're always going to have their kyc KYB processes and that's all well and good for them but Mattereum and vene and team are focused on a new paradigm returning power to the little guy so I'm talking to you pulse you and right we're the little guys compared to some of

[12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=750s) these large giants like Black Rock y that's kind of what I thought I just want to make sure that everybody else hears it the same way sometimes you got to ask that question uh because I want to make sure that everybody makes that differentiation because it is funny to think that for certain reasons we talk about institutions getting into crypto might be good and then on the other hand you turn around and you can frame it another way um let's see Joe uh what do you think about this I would throw down for an apartment building if I could tokenize a part of it what about you mic check Joe he was here a minute ago hello yo he's back don't let me down I know you're there X is X is all over it's still saying I'm in the audience on my screen no you're in my you're number one in the speaker spots and number one in our hearts man I can hear you okay sorry what was the question because I I I'm like X is not being nice to me no we're we're still talking about the idea that he was mentioning like uh whole apartment buildings and stuff being able to tokenize that and then we're just talking about the amount of liquidity that flows in generally to this so the idea that we would all be able to participate uh as little PE quote little people and we were discussing the differentiation between little people and what that must mean the big people like the black rocks and the yeah yeah so in real estate there's these things called syndications right this is a normal thing that you can do in in web to um and you could also set up like funds like a 503b wait 503b my brain is a little off today I think that's what it is but um you can set up funds where Matt was that a thumbs up or a thumbs down it was a thumbs up I'm pretty there you go okay right so we can we can do this in web 2 right now right with you have to be an accredited investor and all this stuff like that right but the the flexibility that we have with the blockchain in number one opening up liquidity globally right accessibility and number two the secondary market for this so like in you know in web 2 if I'm part of a fund and there's a thousand of us let's say in this fund and we buy a 500 unit apartment complex outside of the University of Miami I can't just openly sell my portion of that fund on the free market right it's it's not this simple process as if on the Block blockchain where if

[15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=900s) we can fractionalize the ownership on the blockchain and my my ownership is represented by one five 10 20 nfts I can easily go and sell those assets on a Marketplace and then the benefits derived from holding it whether that's quarterly distributions the the you know uh profiting on the upside if they sell the the building you know it can all much easily be done on chain than all of the Hoops we have to jump through in web two so much paperwork so many signatures uh so so much work no you're absolutely right and and the the instant liquidity uh that would be there instead of having to wait for offer Buy offer sell offer you could be you could be posting it up and leaving it there too there's so many good parts of this conversation we can go into I don't want to just spend all this time because we only have an hour we only have an hour and I have so many questions that we could go into with everybody I'm GNA make a swerve then so uh why wasn't rwa possible like this until now and I'll start with V and then we'll see what everybody else has remember raise a hand if you guys want to get in line because I know I'm just calling on people and stuff if you guys if something Sparks your interest uh raise a hand on this but why wasn't R rwa possible like this till now V because you've been around like you said for a minute working on this why is it just now available to us like this so here um unfortunately the answer is really freaking complicated legal engineering um if you think of a simple model right you buy a gold bar you write an nft and the nft is basically a debt I you one gold bar here's the nft knock yourself out the problem with that is if the gold goes missing if the gold is fake uh if the gold is stolen out of the Vault you know any of these contingencies that happens somebody else turns out to say that they own the gold any of that stuff happens what happens is that The Binding between the blockchain reality and the physical reality comes unstuck the blockchain says one thing the physical reality says another thing and the entire thing Falls to Pieces right um if you're doing things like aerospace engineering you're working with materials like carbon fiber they call this delamination the two layers of the carbon fiber split apart and then the plane falls out the air right so managing delamination where the physical reality and the blockchain reality separate from each other requires insurance right you can't use the blockchain to stop a gold bar being fake you can reduce the risk but you can never entirely eliminate it when that gold bar turns out to be fake at that

[17:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=1050s) point there has to be some mechanism for squaring reality in the blockchain again you need to replace the fake bar with a real bar you need to pay somebody a chunk of money as insurance you need to find some way of resolving that problem so that the blockchain reality lines up again with physical reality and this problem is super super intense because the number of ways that blockchain digital reality and physical reality can separate from each other is almost infinite now for that you need some experts in figuring out the gap between the digital reality the written reality and the physical reality and the name for the experts in differentiating physical reality from written reality is lawyers right they've got thousands of years of experience of writing down the condition of a piece of real estate and then when somebody buys that piece of real estate and the condition doesn't match handling the dispute so if you think of the lawyers as being a source of expertise in reconnecting the physical and the digital so that the blockchain description of reality and the physical reality are resynchronized then what happens is the lawyers go from being the enemy to being experts whose expertise we can amplify using the chain now this is weird thinking for the blockchain right it's like oh you know lawyer L bad you know code code is low the rest of that kind of stuff and that worked right up until the point where you put a gold Bricker an apartment building on the table and then what you discover is you got partner up with the lawyers again so we went in at the top of this and we worked with a very very senior group of UK barristers uh what you would have called Queen's councils now King's councils uh in and among that number the most senior judge in the UK for civil law guy called Sir Jeffrey Voss and I posted a link uh in the chat here to a speech by Sir Jeffrey where he basically says look the blockchain is as Unstoppable in global trade as the internet it was in 1995 right it's an absolutely trustworthy place to collect evidence about what's happening it's going to be present in every single area of finance and commerce and we the Judiciary think that this is a great thing because it handles all the evidence collection problems that we hit in the real world now think of that in contrast to the American situation you're never going to see an American judge talk about how great the blockchain is and that is because Justice is very politicized in America in the UK Justice is not nearly so

[20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=1200s) politicized and the city of London has been providing commercial law as a service to the world for 1,400 years as a continuous Heritage so they look at this blockchain thing is just like this is like the 90th huge technological transformation they've lived through they get out the Playbook that says how do we handle rapid technological change you find a bunch of people to work with you figure out how to implement Justice using the new tools and then off you go to the races so you know what I want to basically suggest here is that everything you think you know about the struggles of getting the blockchain adopted most of that is European or almost all the rest of it is American you get out of that bubble and you look at what's happening in the UK you get a completely different collaborative relationship and the guy that is currently the head of the UK's Financial Center uh Alderman Michael Mainelli now W mayor of London helped us get Mattereum started seven years ago because we went and talked to him and said hey we need some expertise could you tell us who we need to talk to in London to get this thing done and he took us around and introduced us to the people that had the expertise allowed us to make it happen so there's a whole ecosystem in London that is raring to go to deliver the kind of miraculous breakthroughs that you're expecting and half of the E ethereum team was based in London in 2014 and 15 when we built this thing and shipped it the office was in shortage so you know think of this as being like England has arrived in chat we have a different thing going on here you're going to sum all that big brain stuff up like that and make me laugh and forget half the things I was going to say that's awesome uh lawyers Bridging the Gap is what I'm taking away from that because you did there's like an anti-legalization space love this panel legendary panel um to Circle back to the question why wasn't this happening earlier um f and I were actually talking about this yesterday in a space at the forge um and I and I think it it goes to show like where we are as a market right now we're leaning into doing stuff like democratizing access uh to real estate deals by helping out the little guy uh like we were mentioning earlier uh so that's what we're doing at the forge and I I I think one of the big things um

[22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=1350s) that allows that allowed us to get here now and not earlier um Beyond Market maturity and Industry maturity is uh proper business practices um we were we were talking about this on our space yesterday and I think it's so um important to bring up in this moment because if you're hiding behind a pfp if you're not willing to hop on a call with me uh you know to talk about business if you're not sharing or doxing as they say um your history and the workplace who you are as an individual um I I just you know it it leaves us up to um being at the at the whims of scammers and uh you know there was kind of a bifurcation in the beginning of ethereum where they could have gone down the path of um you know building proper business with proper due diligence and and all that stuff but you kind of got it left to um you know you left it in this Open Marketplace where eventually it it got taken over by by the the so-called scammers that people see in the mainstream so I think with where we're at now and where we're heading with all of the mic res uh regulation that's happening in the EU and you know even more broader markets uh as we kind of Trek forward we'll see that that um more you know proper business practices are being implemented with the newer projects and and as uh you know web 3 kind of takes the World by storm so to speak those are all good points uh I would do a room reset right now David because I've got about one more question uh left before we would do the AMA you want to shake it up a bit and remind them folks who we are and what we're doing absolutely pulse you know this is one of my favorite parts of the spaces aside from talking about or Pikachu but all you listeners down there we know what you came here for you're waiting for that ama segment in the end with Mattereum hear all about what they're doing how they're doing it where gold is involved and all that fancy cool stuff drop us a question in the bottom right let us know what you want to know from Mattereum that's what me and pulse are here for we're going through the comments we want to make sure that all of your questions get answered you come here and get all the value you want everything all the alpha the last 15 20 minutes of the spaces it's going to be there retweet it let everybody know that

[25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=1500s) we're going to be talking to Vin Mattereum about everything they have going on and what's to come in the future I mean this this thing is going to be big everybody and you do not want to miss it pulse back to you so the conversation about uh Little Guy versus big guy is where I'm pulling this one from and uh we can make our way around the room and I don't even need to go to V don't take it uh personal I just know you're going to I know where you're going to feel on this one but then does that mean that things like Black Rock are kind of a an existential threat then to what we're doing do they represent um the government do they represent you know the big guy to the rest of you guys that haven't had a chance to speak as I uh circle around I want to give everybody a chance to get on the mic at a Mario show Iona I haven't heard from you uh AK we haven't heard from you Iona what do you think is Black Rock a problem are they the problem the problem in the room no not really I actually think going back to the little guy versus big guy conversation I think that for the little guy to benefit we need the big guys to heavily invest in infrastructure and in security um and I have to be honest it almost feels counterintuitive for me to have a bullish stance on tokenization rwas given that just a few years ago during my time at City Group I was growing extremely frustrated with financial Giants whose perception of crypto was uh somewhat limited almost exclusively to this angle of tokenization and there was definitely no appetite to move beyond that well obviously things and my perception have changed in the interim mainly because I'm now part of a project which specializes in tangible asset tokenization and even tokenization of economic behaviors and profiles but I want to go back to why I think uh Black Rock but not just black rock just institutional this institutional involvement and also inflow of capital is relevant so if we look at recent developments in the rwa market the potential is really really huge um for instance rwa tokens reached a market cap of over 2.7 billion in February and if we look at what it is all about it's about global access and liquidity to traditional assets basically uh now if we look at just the segment of the US Treasury demonization alone we've got Franklin Templeton we've got Black Rock which was mentioned quite a few times with the black rock USD institutional digital liquidity fund cannot believe I managed to say that um they created that with securiti uh securitize and and then Ando uh which launched the Ando short-term US government treasuries now together they have an aggregate 800

[27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=1650s) million market cap and they're extremely extremely attracted to investors um mostly because of the yields they generate right some of them are over 5% now evidently uh the most successful tokenized and fully integrated asset is Fiat in the form of stables and I think we all uh benefit from from them being integrated in the crypto market and this trend will probably continue as such for the near future but tokenized Fiat aside we've got substantial development in tokenized private credit and now if you look at the trfy market cap of tokenized private CR credit it's over 100 1.6 trillion right and then Commodities equities and funds so as already stated uh this this shows an extremely bullish stance on rwas and it shows why we need this institutional inflow um and now if I look at the segments of direct interest to me and to us at Domin we've got gaming with an estimate of 450 billion in revenue for 2024 uh and then the e-commerce space with an estimate revenue of a bit over 4 trillion into 2024 so if just half of that value somewhat reaches onchain rails they then I've rested my case right um and so um I still believe again coming from a stance of someone who was anti- tokenization in 2017 2018 mostly because I thought it was boring um I believe that we need the big guys and we need the big guys for at least one two three four years and then it will be easier easier to onboard masses into crypto via tokenization and Via that channel from offchain environments or web2 environments as we want to call them uh into web 3 so yeah here I am with a change stance I'm not bullish on rwa you're getting used to it though I can tell I can tell you knew it was coming that's why I was excited I appreciate your input and your perspective on it he K how do you feel then uh do you feel like she might be right that we need that big money to come in or we just are they the bad guys from the get-go uh no I um I I I definitely do agree uh uh with iona's Point here uh definitely uh you know around the same time uh as she quoted uh in 2017 um I was in the in the private Equity space as well um you know looking to develop and tokenize uh primarily real estate really being the bigger uh more streamlined and mainstream asset uh but we faced a lot of challenges and um as Iona has pointed out here the bigger

[30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=1800s) challenges that were always faced were just the bigger institutional uh adoption was uh abysmal uh obviously we like to to highlight certain um uh uses of uh of um you know tokenization like uh you know increased liquidity uh transparency in trust fractionalized ownership accessibility Etc uh and these were all great things that you know we a lot of the industry and people that were early adopters of crypto to uh foreseen um the uses of uh of how we can integrate the blockchain into um real applications uh and primarily really it's uh I would say real estate is the biggest driving force now going forward where we are today I don't like to have a stigma around um rwa being kind of like everything must become digital and tokenized and uh you know I I think that there's some some very key um uh you know Cornerstone own uh I guess Industries or types of assets that would probably very much so benefit from tokenization uh one being obviously real estate and I think others would be more things like arts and collectibles um and potential Securities in the future and I think that tokenizing really gives people an ability to have um the whole really the total belief of fractionalized ownership as well as the ability to have the liquidity there uh for um integration exit uh why because it's more of a tribal thing it's more of a uh decentralized World thing as opposed to um not and uh I think things like for example if I was to ever have a chance to have a fractional ownership in a uh one of one uh Pikachu card uh that is the best on the market I might bite and I might uh have a little bit of that if the infrastructure is uh set properly so uh one of the reasons why not to stay too long um I would to answer your question why the big gu is very important uh you know it lays lays the infrastructure uh for the smaller people to be able to adopt the systems and build that trust and unfortunately the small guys don't have the ability to build as much trust as the big guys and the big names and the big drivers of uh money and liquidity and uh finally uh I think Mattereum is very important um in being able to provide um you know the biggest the biggest thing that stood out to me and in reviewing the website just briefly here um is the is the ability to

[32:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=1950s) operate and uh sell across many jurisdictions globally um so whereas we always have a problem with the US jurisdiction being our biggest regulator I guess North America biggest obstacle is our regulations and ability to get around um certain type of investors and accredited and who who applies and who doesn't uh I I would say on a global scale if you figure that solution out it would it would help uh Kickstart uh the entry and the jurisdiction and framework that would go into the US system um so Mattereum uh Kudos and definitely uh happy to check out the project and actually just a quick question if I may add so I don't jump in on the amas uh when you do get a chance vet um if you can just comment on when I'm looking at a little bit of the pre-sales and how to how to be involved and to purchase some of the tokens um it seems like there's a little bit more legality around it and when I say that as in kyc and maybe going through a specific portal um so if you can just kind of comment on that that would really help maybe the the audience and myself um know how to get some and how to be involved thank you sure so thank you for asking that I appreciate that uh I I have a tendency to turn up these things to talk about the ideas and then totally forget to mention token so um there is Mattereum dode so this is our German subsidiary this is the thing that issues the tokens uh we started a token sale I want to say January 19th and that sale ends on the 4th of July uh those tokens are not available to Americans they're not available to sorry they're not available to people that are well not available in the US not available in the UK uh terms and conditions apply and there is indeed kyc AML CDF and there are a bunch of countries that those folks block they're a regulated German financial institution The Exchange is called swarm that's where the tokens actually bought and sold um now that sale ends tomorrow Fourth of July is when tokens start going into wallets they then vest uh 10% of the tokens uh every 20 days and right towards the end of the year all those tokens will at that point have gone into wallets and be liquid um however Fourth of July uh you you folks are actually the first people to know we got legal clearance to talk about this about half an hour before the space started um there is now a new thing so if you go to Mattereum doio you will get a bunch of information about an upcoming American token issue

[35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDu_KLWVCag&t=2100s) right completely different legal structure completely different token uh we did an absurd and frankly very painful amount of legal hoop jumping to be able to do this but there is now a token which is available to us accredited investors only and there will be a set of offering paperwork and all the rest of the typical Machinery that goes along with that as you would expect for those kind of offers we have to be incredibly careful about we what we say about this because American Securities Law is extremely ferocious uh and we also have to be very precise about the compliance issues so that thing you know the European Union token is like hey these people want to play ball they want to do this the American token is just like you have to walk very very carefully and not step in a crack of the pavement but nonetheless we're in a position where we can now talk about it in public a very tiny bit and if you want some more information on that Mattereum doio is where you go for it I like the idea that the Americans were so much harder to get to get in very typical that it was more difficult to get it I like you said the amount of paperwork was arduous uh I'm glad you guys asked and there was no way you were going to get out of here without David asking you about the token and I'm sure we're not done asking about it yet but David's furiously taking notes David this is the opposite of everything I think of when I think of your trading strategy because you don't have to kyc on pump fund and there's no forms to fill out or anything what do you think when you hear him say all that man oh Paul look I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you the 69% of me perspective that's all D gen and then I'm going to give you the rest of my perspective that is some somewhat of a normal person look from a Dent's point of view most web three users I don't know kyc is actually a curse word in our world you you might not see it in the Webster's Dictionary but if you look in the dictionary and the thesaurus and all those books of web 3 kyc is not something that the majority of people out here want to hear but you know time times are changing we're opening up to the process of it as long as it's a reputable company the majority of exchanges out here they want you to kyc legitimate businesses in the real world and and most in web 3 they want to know who their customers are we want to know who we're dealing with and there's nothing wrong with that but I good luck trying to get a meme coin Trader to do it on pump fun that that's not realistic that's not even realistic on the moon Elon can't even get the people on Mars to do that but everybody in the real world if you're looking at ETFs if you're looking about investing in

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Continues in https://guptaoption.com/texts/555-2.md (part 2 of 2).
End of [555] Breaking Down Real World Assets: Crypto Daily, with Mario Nawfal and Vinay Gupta, part 1 of 2. Its connections are at the top of this file; the map is https://guptaoption.com/llms.txt.